"resupply lockers"

[Moose]

Play upward as red and tell me how much 1. walls around spawn and 2. slightly elevated spawns notably increase walk times to the spawn room, then tell me whether the protected spawn isn't 100% worth an iota of extra time.

If you're burning to death you will, and if you're having a good time playing the game you'll curse a designer who made you play locker-jog instead of team fortress 2.

upward's spawnrooms aren't protected entirely, and the walls they have do increase the walk time to and from spawn slightly. You aren't getting spawncamped often because it's an easy point to defend, people are focusing on things other than the spawndoors usually.

So. Keeping both spawns and lockers close to objectives means defenders spamming from their spawndoors. Keeping spawns further from objectives and lockers close to the spawndoors means defenders locker-jogging towards their spawndoors FROM the objective in order to heal themselves. Keeping spawns close to objectives and lockers far from spawndoors means defenders running a short distance to their spawns, where they are safe, and THEN locker-jogging a short distance. Trying to keep either the spawns or the lockers away from objectives is annoying. Keeping spawns close and lockers farther is just marginally less so.

 

[Ravidge]

Am I the only one who thinks that maps, and thereby spawns, should be designed so that combat naturally doesn't occur close to spawn, removing the need to deliberately inconvenience players?

But moving the spawns away from key locations does inconvenience players just as much as having the locker further inside the spawn room.
But having the spawn nearby makes it so you can change class faster, feel safe faster.

Name a map (only dustbowl has been convincingly argued for so far, and I'm gonna gloss over it as soon as the game re-installs) where inconveniently placed supply lockers balances the total flow of gameplay, and I'll point out subtle changes to the shape or orientation of spawn that remove the need to idiosyncratically locate the only thing players are in the spawn to receive.

First of all, I don't think the lockers are inconveniently placed. I'd use the word "strategically".
But okay, here's some examples where locker placement help pace the combat

There's more but I'm not making a comprehensive list, just showing what I mean.

 

[FOREVER]

For clarity:

I am not at all saying spawns should be far away from the key points on the map. I am saying spawns should be designed to make spawncamping more difficult. These are two different statements, because you can do the latter without doing the former.

I don't think it's an accident that valve's more recent maps, like upward and hightower, exhibit more secure spawn point design, and in these maps there's far less spawncamping. I consider that an improvement! Moose, you say the spawns aren't camped as much because they're easier to defend. That's my entire point.

EDIT: the link works now, and those pictures illustrate EXACTLY what I'm railing against. Most of those supply lockers are in the very backs of their spawn rooms! 5-6 seconds is an un-fun waste of time to be playing locker-jog in coldfront when enemies are on the final point, AND you can't even spam anything of note directly from the spawn doors. But don't get me started on coldfront...

 

[Moose]

Yeah I was starting to think you were talking about something different than I was.

But that still doesn't change the fact that you're going to want the resupply locker away from the point in some way. I don't think coldfront's locker is all that far from the door at all, either.

 

[FOREVER]

Look closely at coldfront's lockers. Imagine you're exit is camped by a medic+pyro. You're on fire and running to get healed. This is the only reason you are back in your spawn. Would you, as a player in that position, prefer those lockers be close to the doors, or far from the doors? I assume this isn't a difficult question.

Now look at every other spawn schematic in those pictures. All of em, save gravelpit, subject the player to needless (as far as I can tell) locker-jogging. Maybe the designer thought this would balance the game somehow. I contend there are ways to balance gameplay without forcing players to trudge to the corner of the bloody spawn!

 

[Moose]

Look closely at coldfront's lockers. Imagine you're exit is camped by a medic+pyro. You're on fire and running to get healed. This is the only reason you are back in your spawn. Would you, as a player in that position, prefer those lockers be close to the doors, or far from the doors? I assume this isn't a difficult question.

Now look at every other spawn schematic in those pictures. All of em, save gravelpit, subject the player to needless (as far as I can tell) locker-jogging. Maybe the designer thought this would balance the game somehow. I contend there are ways to balance gameplay without forcing players to trudge to the corner of the bloody spawn!

I've already gone through every other method of trying to balance the spawn without putting the locker in the corner, and unless you want people to stand next to their doorway, looking out while being healed, I don't think there's any other way to change it for the better.

Besides, it's not like everybody running to the spawn is always on fire and about to die. Honestly I'm killed from spawn door to locker so rarely that I've never even cared.

 

[Crash]

Personally I think the run to the locker on fire is enjoyable in the essence that it is an intense race to beat the damage.

Is it frustrating when you don't make it? Yep. Is it frustrating when you get headshot from across the map? Also yes.

Just because it's slightly frustrating or requires the player to not get exactly what he wants, doesn't make it bad to be in a map. Sure that player isn't happy he died, but I bet the pyro that lit him on fire is. Nothing satisfies me more as a pyro than seeing that kill icon pop up well after I lost track of the target.

Honestly I think you've just gotten overly frustrated with dying before you made it to a spawn locker and are projecting it onto your mapping. Do you play pyro much? :laugh:

 

[FOREVER]

I've already gone through every other method of trying to balance the spawn without putting the locker in the corner, and unless you want people to stand next to their doorway, looking out while being healed, I don't think there's any other way to change it for the better.

Actually you haven't gone through every other method, i don't think you've even seriously addressed a single one I mentioned. Earlier I said:

There are loads of ways to secure the vicinity of a spawn area to make spawncamping less effective. For instance: multiple exits, obscured doors (like if the spawn door opens to an L-bend), physical elevation, etc. None of these entail making the spawn less convenient for the team controlling it."


In the case of coldfront, there's nothing to spam from that door! the cp is around the corner! and the lockers could just as easily be RIGHT BEHIND THE DOOR instead of around a corner.

Besides, it's not like everybody running to the spawn is always on fire and about to die. Honestly I'm killed from spawn door to locker so rarely that I've never even cared.

Then you don't care one way or another, and might as well agree with me about those rare incidents. Do you really think coldfront would be broken if players could get healed immediately upon entering spawn?

 

[FOREVER]

And crash I don't know about you but my goal in mapping is to maximize fun for all the players as best I can. Enabling spawn camping is discordant with this. If designers are comfortable to deliberately inconvenience the player then I'm more than happy to not play their maps (why I religiously abstain from the labyrinthine steel).

 

[Moose]

Actually you haven't gone through every other method, i don't think you've even seriously addressed a single one I mentioned. Earlier I said:

There are loads of ways to secure the vicinity of a spawn area to make spawncamping less effective. For instance: multiple exits, obscured doors (like if the spawn door opens to an L-bend), physical elevation, etc. None of these entail making the spawn less convenient for the team controlling it."


In the case of coldfront, there's nothing to spam from that door! the cp is around the corner! and the lockers could just as easily be RIGHT BEHIND THE DOOR instead of around a corner.

Then you don't care one way or another, and might as well agree with me about those rare incidents. Do you really think coldfront would be broken if players could get healed immediately upon entering spawn?

Let's say you draw a line straight from the point to the spawn door. if a bend or wall doesn't intersect that line, walk times do not change, but that also means you can still see the point. Of course you can secure spawndoors using these methods, but unless they get in the way of the point therefore increasing walk times, they will still be looking straight at the point. So, if you want defenders to heal right next to their spawn door, you would either have to block sightlines to the point (therefore INCREASING walk times, making the entire change pointless), or allow them to spam onto it.

Don't think this is an issue? Well in coldront, I can think of a ton of problems which could result from this.
Snipers could camp right next to the door, I'm sure demomen could spam from there, heavies would spray constantly, engineers would use the door as a dispenser, medics could heal their patient while standing by it, etc.

It isn't possible to keep walk times the same and stop red from abusing instant-heal right as they walk into their spawns. Even moving health cabinets closer to the door could potentially allow red to run to spawns, heal, and start defending again too quickly.

EDIT: In maps where there is something obstructing that theoretical line straight from the point to the spawn door, I can see healing right next to spawns working. But then it's sort of irrelevant, since you would still have to walk around that obstruction in order to get healed at all.

 

[Rexy]

This is my real opinion after reading this entire thread. Way back in 2007 when Valve spent tedious hours playtesting and making sure this game played amazingly so that it would last to this day, they made sure placement of resupply cabinets was sensible and right. The convention for resupply cabinets has worked out great so far for community mappers and official maps alike. Why would you want to fix something that's not broken?

 

[Ravidge]

You are seeing inconveniences where there are none, that is the real problem here.
Are you just as annoyed when you have to walk a short distance to grab a health kit? Or when you need metal for you sentry gun? Or when you have to take a detour because you got arblasted off a bridge?

Spawn camping is obviously bad gameplay. But all official maps have enough alternative exits on their spawns to successfully counter it. The respawn wave system is even built to spawn you together with mates that can help you out.
If you're still getting camped and completely destroyed by the other team, consider the fact that the teams are seriously unbalanced.

You want to solve spawn camping by moving the lockers next to the exits. But this wouldn't address the core problem at all. The fact that when 2 evenly skilled teams face each other the battlefront should never be right outside the spawndoors.
This can be solved by adjusting the spawntimers for both teams, maybe edit the path layout to direct gameflow elsewhere.
By only moving the spawn lockers, you also damage the game pacing. Essentially removing all the windows in the defense that attackers could have used to make a push. People can also easily participate in combat while being supplied health from an infinite source, and that would feel pretty lame on the receiving end of the damage.

Adding to that: it's important that there are low-points and high-points in a game. A game that is highly intense throughout will tire the players quickly and cause frustration when mistakes happen. Adding moments of calm (or even dullness) makes the exciting parts much more fun in comparison.

 

[Moose]

This is my real opinion after reading this entire thread. Way back in 2007 when Valve spent tedious hours playtesting and making sure this game played amazingly so that it would last to this day, they made sure placement of resupply cabinets was sensible and right. The convention for resupply cabinets has worked out great so far for community mappers and official maps alike. Why would you want to fix something that's not broken?

This is how I feel, too. I have no clue why I've been spending so much time explaining it. cute mole, by the way.

 

[FOREVER]

It isn't possible to keep walk times the same and stop red from abusing instant-heal right as they walk into their spawns. Even moving health cabinets closer to the door could potentially allow red to run to spawns, heal, and start defending again too quickly.

And for this being bad you have no evidence whatsoever. Here's my interpretation: red gets to play TF2 more.

I think a lot boils down to this: a map where you can spam a point immediately from spawn, with or without a func_regen immediately behind the door, is a poorly designed map.

To be perfectly clear: I don't think players should be regenerated outside of spawn, or be able to spam anything of importance from spawn. But I also think the designer of the map should do his or her best to ensure that the game is as fun for as many players as possible. Making the spawn area less convenient than it has to be is against this dictum. Tell me, moose - do you think spawn areas should be MORE or LESS convenient for all players involved? Do you also think a convenient spawn area is fundamentally opposed to game balance?

 

[Jimmy Nicholls]

I can actually see where Forever is coming from in this, but having read the whole thread a few of his arguments disagree with each other, but perhaps he's changed his thinking as time has gone on. Here's my thoughts, which probably won't end the argument but I'll lay 'em down anyway.

Forever seems to be concerned with not wasting any players time. The fun part of TF2 is being involved in combat, not walking to and from where the action is. It's also not waiting to respawn after you have died. However, there needs to be a certain amount of walking to the action and waiting to respawn otherwise the balance of the maps would be ruined. (A fact which most people have pointed out already). So while it limits your fun for 15 seconds or so, it makes the game more fun overall.

And to answer your question: Game balance > Minor inconvenience to players

 

[FOREVER]

This is my real opinion after reading this entire thread. Way back in 2007 when Valve spent tedious hours playtesting and making sure this game played amazingly so that it would last to this day, they made sure placement of resupply cabinets was sensible and right. The convention for resupply cabinets has worked out great so far for community mappers and official maps alike. Why would you want to fix something that's not broken?

Well, Rexy, you could make a pseudo-ad populum argument or actually address the points I've made. If valve was perfect there wouldn't be patches and map updates. And even then, put on your molehill goggles and pretend supply locker placement matters - am I right or wrong that they should be placed to maximize the convenience of players in spawn?

 

[A Boojum Snark]

red gets to play TF2 more.

blu gets to play TF2 less because they die to fully stocked reds more often. :O

/exits thread stage left

 

[Rexy]

Well, Rexy, you could make a pseudo-ad populum argument or actually address the points I've made. If valve was perfect there wouldn't be patches and map updates. And even then, put on your molehill goggles and pretend supply locker placement matters - am I right or wrong that they should be placed to maximize the convenience of players in spawn?

Using arguments of logical fallacies only work in academia and research papers. This is the internet, son.

And the updates are primarily for adding new content to the game, and then fixing some of that new content when the userbase finds ways to exploit them. Locker placement has nothing to do with the updates. And, you asked, so: you're wrong about placing lockers to maximize the convenience of players. It's about balance.

 

[Icarus]

Hell, I've always thought resupply cabinets were just a visual/audio representation of regeneration.

Just walking into spawn room to regen isn't really intuitive.

 

[FOREVER]

I can actually see where Forever is coming from in this, but having read the whole thread a few of his arguments disagree with each other, but perhaps he's changed his thinking as time has gone on. Here's my thoughts, which probably won't end the argument but I'll lay 'em down anyway.

Forever seems to be concerned with not wasting any players time. The fun part of TF2 is being involved in combat, not walking to and from where the action is. It's also not waiting to respawn after you have died. However, there needs to be a certain amount of walking to the action and waiting to respawn otherwise the balance of the maps would be ruined. (A fact which most people have pointed out already). So while it limits your fun for 15 seconds or so, it makes the game more fun overall.

And to answer your question: Game balance > Minor inconvenience to players

Jimmy, I'm impressed with myself for keeping as consistent as I've kept - my thinking has been changing as this thread has developing.

I totally agree that there needs to be walking to the fight for the game to work. Otherwise teleporters would be entirely irrelevant!

But answer me this: can a map designer satisfy BOTH players needing to walk to combat AND players getting healed conveniently in spawn? If so, then distant resupply lockers within spawn are inexcusable, which is my main point.