"resupply lockers"

[absurdistof]

Guys, he's entitled to what he wants to do. It's fine if people don't want to do things the normal way. I know it's not normal, and you could say "don't fix it if it ain't broke," but that's no reason to stop someone taking a map in their own direction. I will say though that I don't think there is a better option here, just conflicting taste. I don't have a problem with it as long as it's fun, and as long as the map maker understands what he/she's doing.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Forever, I like that you want to change up the game, but I have two things to say about this. First, don't try to reinvent the wheel (you aren't in this instance), it's a common by-product of stepping out of what's normal, but it will slow you down significantly.

That stuff aside if you want to have a spawn room resupply players, it's not that hard. I'm sure you can manage the entity work but I think the difficult part will be indicating to players, and having them feel comfortable, with the fact that they are getting resupplied. You already mentioned that you wouldn't put the brush at the spawn door because it will break the map, but you do need to indicate precisely where the resupply area starts. For this I would suggest looking at the hazard tape textures (you can download them from the forums if they don't come stock in TF2, just search 'hazard'), and marking up not only the floor, but the walls as well with it, where the resupply trigger starts.

Basically, it's cool that you want to go out of the box but understand that in this example, you'll need to really indicate to the player what's happening, and that if you want to continue going off on your own tangent that it may require some skills that you'll need to hone first in order to get whatever you want to do right. That said, good luck with it

EDIT: Note that I was talking about butting a func_resupplylocker (or whatever it is) over a section of the spawn without a model. I wouldn't advise using another model because players already expect something unique from it (like a dispenser).

 

[A Boojum Snark]

I am curious why when you were bothered with distant lockers you first thought "make the whole room resupply" instead of just "move them closer". Design your spawn such that the locker is very close to the door? It solves your perceived problem of walking too far, and doesn't venture into the realm of out-of-theme weirdness.

 

[Mr. Wimples]

I am curious why when you were bothered with distant lockers you first thought "make the whole room resupply" instead of just "move them closer". Design your spawn such that the locker is very close to the door? It solves your perceived problem of walking too far, and doesn't venture into the realm of out-of-theme weirdness.

Or just make the respawn room out of supply cabinets :T

But really, Booj has a great point.

 

[ScorpioUprising]

Blegh, this thread makes my head hurt. If you think your map is going to be better without supply lockers, then make it without them. Then, when every single playtester goes "WHERE MY LOCKAS BE AT??!!" you'll feel stupid and put them back in.

 

[sniprpenguin]

your first sentence made me laugh. Since you seem to agree that my suggestion is smarter/efficient, I'm happy to not dispute your tenuous psychological speculation.

Yes, I agree that it may work in theory. However, I'm telling you not to. Eating babies would solve world hunger, but if you honestly suggest it, I'm not going to say that wouldn't work, but that it's not ethical.

That's kind of how I see this argument going right now.

Plus, I don't think the resupply effect, implemented however, should be mysterious and difficult for players to understand - it should be entirely intuitive and effortless, because the game is waiting outside. "Find the locker" isn't intuitive and effortless. "Spawn=safe area=resupply" actually is intuitive and effortless, contra your fun imaginings.

Big locker with heath and ammo signs on it = not mysterious and universally recognized

Room that heals = new, strange, and a big change. All things players hate.

But, for your sake, since you seem to skim posts:

Design your spawn such that the locker is very close to the door?

 

[FOREVER]

I am curious why when you were bothered with distant lockers you first thought "make the whole room resupply" instead of just "move them closer". Design your spawn such that the locker is very close to the door? It solves your perceived problem of walking too far, and doesn't venture into the realm of out-of-theme weirdness.

The 'make the whole room resupply idea' was dumb, to be honest. For some reason I was envisioning a very 'porous' spawn room with a lot of exits...not the best idea given what else I want.

I totally agree that all my concerns are answered by moving the resupply lockers in such a way that one cannot enter the spawn without triggering func_regen, and this is the direction I'm probably going to take. I might also try putting supply lockers on the floor and roof of the spawn exit

 

[tyler]

I might also try putting supply lockers on the floor and roof of the spawn exit

what the hell

 

[Vincent]

I might also try putting supply lockers on the floor and roof of the spawn exit

Huh. That'll be.. interesting. There's loose objects in those cabinets (ammo and medicine) that would otherwise fall out when they open if they were on the roof, just food for thought.

It'd look a little wonky. To each his own I guess.

 

[red_flame586]

Because I had to and you didn't stop me (v2 because i'm bored):

 

[Freyja]

That and the fact that the resupply lockers have a visual opening affect. Coupled with the sound this gives the player instant feedback that they have been resupplied. If they have their sound off, they know that they now have full health and ammo without having too look down.

Besides, the fact that burning to death centimeters before the resupply locker won't change. Instead you'll just burn to death centimeters before the spawn door.

 

[Ravidge]

The resupply lockers are also for balancing. The fact that you have to walk a few seconds to reach one is intentional.
The time you spend away from defense is a window that attackers can exploit, just as much as respawntimers are a balancing factor. If the resupply is too close and accessible defenders will use this to their advantage and you'd have to counter this by adding other penalties to make a balanced map.

You will die inside the respawn room every once in a while due to fire or bleed, but that just proves the system is working. You were beyond reach of the resupply in the first place and that is the players fault, not the map.

I will say that a resupply locker should always be placed in a obvious spot. You shouldn't die because you couldn't find it, but as I said, reaching it is a completely different story.

 

[grazr]

What Ravidge said.

Having the locker/resupply trigger so close to the spawn exit only serves to cause balance issues and greifing. Including spam (the locker negates reloading). It would also make engineers OP with such easy access to metal and health; this is already an issue on 2fort where engineers sit inside the spawn room, smacking their sentry just outside the door: Taking cover behind the door and then grabbing their sentry when ever it takes mortal damage. Only then for the attackers to get overwhelmed by a fresh spawn wave they shouldn't have had to engage.

I don't like the internet term "QQ" but just because you died a couple units away from a locker, regardless of being in the theoretical safety of the spawn room, isn't a reason to get butt hurt at the game. That's not what the resupply locker was specifically designed to do (IE save your life mid-combat). It's just a mechanic to auto-supply you fully, in both health and ammo, if you happen to exit combat successfully whilst in close proximity to your spawn location.

It's not an "issue" and as a result doesn't need to be "resolved". It's designed this way for a reason.

There's nothing more annoying to serious players than another player running in and out of the spawn room to prolongue their life expectancy during combat.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

It's not like burning to death miliseconds from a safety is limited to lockers either... ;_;

 

[FOREVER]

It may very well the case that odd and non-standard positions of resupply lockers are in fact used for balance. I think my point might better pertain to whether or not they SHOULD be used for balance when other mechanisms, e,g, carefully adjusting the location of spawn, might be far more appropriate. If the designer is moving the location of the supply locker inside the spawn specifically for making it less convenient to reach, the designer has forgotten that the player is returning to spawn for only one reason, and one reason only - to get resupplied - and thus a deliberate inconvenience should be a last resort.

Am I the only one who thinks that maps, and thereby spawns, should be designed so that combat naturally doesn't occur close to spawn, removing the need to deliberately inconvenience players? Name a map (only dustbowl has been convincingly argued for so far, and I'm gonna gloss over it as soon as the game re-installs) where inconveniently placed supply lockers balances the total flow of gameplay, and I'll point out subtle changes to the shape or orientation of spawn that remove the need to idiosyncratically locate the only thing players are in the spawn to receive.

Maybe I'm a madman - I think the spawn should be guaranteed safety in order to minimize the effectiveness of spawncamping, because dying to spawn camping isn't fun, while playing the game is.

 

[tyler]

your argument about lockers can be applied to spawn rooms, too.

 

[FOREVER]

in what way?

 

[Moose]

Spawnrooms already are relatively safe, since the opposing team can't enter. Pushing the spawnroom back just means defenders have to walk a greater distance to enjoy that safety. You aren't looking at the big picture here, getting spawncamped is annoying, but you aren't being spawncamped because your spawnroom is close to the objective. You're getting spawncamped because your team hasn't been able to defend anything in front of them.

 

[FOREVER]

Spawnrooms already are relatively safe, since the opposing team can't enter. Pushing the spawnroom back just means defenders have to walk a greater distance to enjoy that safety. You aren't looking at the big picture here, getting spawncamped is annoying, but you aren't being spawncamped because your spawnroom is close to the objective. You're getting spawncamped because your team hasn't been able to defend anything in front of them.

1. There are loads of ways to secure the vicinity of a spawn area to make spawncamping less effective. For instance: multiple exits, obscured doors (like if the spawn door opens to an L-bend), physical elevation, etc. None of these entail making the spawn less convenient for the team controlling it.

2. I don't think the map designer should punish players for having bad teammates by enabling spawn camping. That's a way to ensure that players find a more hospitable server/map very quickly.

 

[Moose]

1. There are loads of ways to secure the vicinity of a spawn area to make spawncamping less effective. For instance: multiple exits, obscured doors (like if the spawn door opens to an L-bend), physical elevation, etc. None of these entail making the spawn less convenient for the team controlling it.

2. I don't think the map designer should punish players for having bad teammates by enabling spawn camping. That's a way to ensure that players find a more hospitable server/map very quickly.

1. Any kind of spawn door obscuring will either be too little to fully protect from spawncamping, or increase walk times back into the spawnroom.

2. Again, pushing spawnrooms further from the point in order to prevent spawncamping will only result in a more aggravating time for defenders. Keeping spawnrooms close to points (assuming they aren't in a position to be spammed at) allows defenders to be in a safe place where attackers can't reach them. If players have a long way to walk from their spawns to the point, it's just more opportunity for attackers to kill them, and less opportunity for anybody coming out of spawn to do anything useful.

Of course getting killed by your spawn is really annoying. All I'm saying is that it's more annoying to have to walk away from spawn just to get killed anyways. Even if health cabinets are on the other side of your spawn, you won't be attacked on the way there if you're inside the spawnroom.

 

[FOREVER]

1. Any kind of spawn door obscuring will either be too little to fully protect from spawncamping, or increase walk times back into the spawnroom.

Play upward as red and tell me how much 1. walls around spawn and 2. slightly elevated spawns notably increase walk times to the spawn room, then tell me whether the protected spawn isn't 100% worth an iota of extra time.

Of course getting killed by your spawn is really annoying. All I'm saying is that it's more annoying to have to walk away from spawn just to get killed anyways. Even if health cabinets are on the other side of your spawn, you won't be attacked on the way there if you're inside the spawnroom.

If you're burning to death you will, and if you're having a good time playing the game you'll curse a designer who made you play locker-jog instead of team fortress 2.