Plant CTF Ya or Nay?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Mar, May 3, 2009.

?

Plant the Flag: Balanced or Severely Broken?

  1. Is Plant The Flag, PLF, a balanced gamemode that should be in more maps?

    18 vote(s)
    72.0%
  2. Is Plant The Flag, PLF, a severely unbalanced gamemode that should not be implemented in more maps?

    7 vote(s)
    28.0%
  1. Mar

    Mar Banned

    Messages:
    607
    Positive Ratings:
    63
    The mapping community has had a few new maps appear that are sporting a relatively new and underutilized game type, Plant The Flag.

    This game type is the reverse of CTF. Instead of bringing the enemy flag to their base, your bring yours to theirs, which then captures that control point or scores a point for you.

    Being that this mode is not officially supported by Valve, we are quite limited in our ability to modify this game mode for a smoother playing experience. As of right now, the chief complaint is the ease in planting the flag. It is an instant capture, giving defense no time to react. The defense can not defend the actual capture point itself, but instead has to defend the outlying area. And even a small push has a chance of success due to the fact that if a scout slips in with the flag, it is an insta cap and defense has no chance of countering it.

    The question I bring to you, fellow TF2map.net'ers, is, "Is Plant The Flag, PLF, a balanced gamemode that you wish was in more maps," or, "Is Plant The Flag, PLF, a severely unbalanced gamemode that you feel should not be implemented in more maps?"

    Comments?
     
  2. Icarus

    aa Icarus

    Messages:
    2,246
    Positive Ratings:
    1,182
    I like to believe that there was a reason Valve developed Control Point mechanics.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  3. ScrappyD2o

    ScrappyD2o L1: Registered

    Messages:
    18
    Positive Ratings:
    2
    Actually, you can give it a delay on capture by making a trigger with a team filter that sets off a timer, which after x seconds enables the capture point. When there's noone of the attacking team is on the point anymore, it gets disabled again and the timer reset. Make a screen message to the defenders that there's someone on the point, and maybe play a warning sound.

    Yeah it also triggers when someone that's not the flag carrier gets on the spot of course, but I don't think that's a big prob, since it still means the other team holds the capture zone for a certain amount of time to enable it for capture.
     
  4. DJive

    aa DJive Cake or Death?

    Messages:
    1,466
    Positive Ratings:
    736
    As im making a PTF.. im Bias =)
     
  5. Dr Forrester

    Dr Forrester L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    60
    Positive Ratings:
    22
    My first map I was going to attempt (and gave up on for non-technical reasons) was going to be a single flag version of this, so yeah, if you make the map properly, I think it's a fine idea.
     
  6. l3eeron

    l3eeron L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

    Messages:
    594
    Positive Ratings:
    85
    I'm biased too, I'm using the rctf on my map.
     
  7. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,568
    I think a level designer has to be aware of the gameflow for rctf. Or plf as you put it. The game mode isn't broken, i just have yet to see a map that fully catered for the possibilities with rctf.

    TFC had a map called epicentre that was rctf and worked very well because defence area's looked in on the layout, and the CTF point lay behind an obstacle (an apc) so it wasn't possible to run directly onto the point like i've seen in most custom TF2 maps. The map consisted of only 2 routes as well, so gameplay was focused and the flag was more likely to be intercepted.

    Spawn points lay between the flag and no mans land in much the same way it does in CTF allowing the team to assault quickly or back trail and defend. Teams had X amount of time (determined by the server, but it also had a defualt limit) to set up a defence/attack the opposing team before they can get a defence up, before the flag was available inside their spawn.

    The fact that the flag was inside the spawn area was a very important hint to the game mode and meant that someone was sure to pick it up. A player designing for rctf should take into consideration the lack of a need for an escape but also not allow for an inpenitrable defence.
     
  8. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

    Messages:
    4,769
    Positive Ratings:
    5,535
    My vote: neither.
    How well a game mode works is entirely up to the designer's ability to implement it well.

    If a game mode is bi-directional the symmetry makes the game mode itself inherently "balanced" and any imbalance is purely out of the designers shortfalls.
    If a game mode is asymmetric (within reason), then it has a higher chance of being inherently imbalanced, though it's still largely up to the designer to make it work.

    It is wrong to outright dismiss any reasonable game mode in it's entirety.

    I imagine a lot of people might have thought a mobile indestructible dispenser for one team attached to an objective would be bad... yet we've gained payload, and it works.
     
  9. Mar

    Mar Banned

    Messages:
    607
    Positive Ratings:
    63
    Right now the main issue that I see with these PLF maps is that you need the exact opposite design for a good CTF, CP, or PL map. To keep people from ninja'ing the flag you need to make it very linear, with not many alternate routes, and to only have the CP accessible by one or 2 directions.

    Unfortantely this would make a good PLF map very prone to spam, and as we've seen before mindless spam is only fun for about 15 mins.
     
  10. Connect_Four

    Connect_Four L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    57
    Positive Ratings:
    22
    Also biased as my map is RCTF. I think RCTF is great, but it has problems. The suicide rushes and the "Where do I go" people do throw off the gameday and map in general
     
  11. Fireman

    Fireman L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    150
    Positive Ratings:
    59
    Voting no for now, as all of the maps of this gametype I've seen so far have featured the attacking team suicide rushing forward until they get the flag onto the point. It feels less like a team game and more like a zerg fest.
     
  12. StoneFrog

    StoneFrog L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    395
    Positive Ratings:
    81
    I have enjoyed "Reverse CTF"'s incarnation in Team Fortress Classic maps. I think the biggest problem has always been how an ubercharged Demoman or a really lucky Scout can pretty much rush by all the enemy's defensive measures and just cap in one second - something that they cannot perform in standard CTF as it's a round trip.

    Whether it's in a CTF layout or a CP layout, I say go for it - just be sure to give defenders a fighting chance against the cappers.
     
  13. Mar

    Mar Banned

    Messages:
    607
    Positive Ratings:
    63
    An important part in any gamemode is that for one team to win they must prove that they are better and dominate an area. In CP and PL maps you need to wipe out most of their team to progress, showing your dominance, and in CTF you must kill the entire team to get the flag and run it back.

    In PTF you don't need to dominate the area, you just need one lucky bum rush, so PTF is less of an indication of skill then the other gamemodes.
     
  14. Schmoe

    Schmoe L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    60
    Positive Ratings:
    1
    I have my fingers crossed that Valve will introduce an alternate-CTF mode. I'm creating an invade map with 1 flag in the middle of the map, so I'm biased. I think it has a lot of potential since it doesn't require as much "grind" as Payload and is more dynamic.

    I agree with Snark, the fun-ness of a map is entirely on the mapper, not the game type. A well placed chokepoint that isn't super-impossible to push through (with the right team makeup) can provide some reprieve for the defenders.
     
  15. Tayrtahn

    Tayrtahn L1: Registered

    Messages:
    7
    Positive Ratings:
    0
    Very interesting points made here. CTF requiring a round-trip versus PTF's single push is the big difference here.

    Perhaps a variation where the flag is at a different location in the enemy base? The attacking team would have to push through the first defenses to get the flag, then run it either through or around the enemy base and past a second set of defenses to score.
    Of course, that might make it too hard to capture unless the map was cleverly designed. Hm.
     
  16. StoneFrog

    StoneFrog L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    395
    Positive Ratings:
    81
    What if the flag were placed behind the area where you cap it? That way the map would give an "attacker's advantage" once you get ahold of the flag as you already (more or less) reached your destination whilst still effectively having to push past defenders in the same way you would with a normal CTF map.