No Crits, No Respawn Time

[Narkissus]

Crits are part of the game, live with it. If you are good enough you will throw out more crits than the enemy does. I've got the highest KDR on the server I play on and have no problems with crits. Seems you are just meeting superior players that do more damage and because of that do more crits. Sure, it can be frustrating to be on the receiving end. But when wiping out entire teams in just 3 rockets it just feels good

That would be fine if that was actually what happened. But its not, you dont get crits only after killing massive amounts of people, they come randomly too, and its the random ones that ruin the game. If you dont believe me run around by yourself sometime as a soldier and youll see yourself getting crits every 4th shot or so, theres no killing going on there. It would be much better if it was just how you stated though, crits as a reward.

 

[Kirko]

As far as respawn time goes, I firmly believe that it is necessary, and I avoid zero-respawn servers. It's too hard for Blue to win Dustbowl with no respawn.

Blue won all the time in dustbowl in TFC. TFC had instant spawn. The dispensers in TFC also sucked and didnt give health and there were no ubers and medics couldnt give health 30feet away either and there were not criticals and spies couldn't cloak and disguise in 2secs either. It all has to do with how well ur team is. I think it is much easier to capture a point in dustbowl now with instant respawn than it was in TFC

 

[Scotland Tom]

Well, I just took 300 rocket shots as a soldier. I had a total of 19 crits. I also took 300 shots with a scout pistol and got 12 crits. I ALSO took 300 swings with the scout bat and got 46 crits. So, according to those individually large data sets:

Pistol critical percentage: 4%
Rocket critical percentage: 6.33%
Bat critical percentage: 15.33%

I didn't have time to do 300 shots of any other weapons. Perhaps I will if I get the chance. But if you look at just those three percentages it looks like the bat wins.

Now, if you want to talk about the amount of damage a critical hit does I'll agree that a critical rocket/grenade packs a LOT more punch than a critical pistol shot.

 

[grazr]

I was also thinking of the random crits when i posted that. I'm aware you get more crits with more dominations or achievements. I simply find it funny sometimes; joining a fresh server i get more crits with no kills than when i'm dominating 8 people.. Just last night i swear every 1 in 3 of my pipe bombs was a crit for going on 5 minutes. I hadn't even killed anyone. I dominated about 8 people simultaniously as a result, and then didn't get another crit for the rest of the game. I'm not complaining. Crits work in my favour more than against me. I am just saying it is frustrating to get killed just because someone gets a random crit.

Even though crits tend to work more in my favour than against i'm still inclined to say that they should be inplemented in a more regulated fashion. Such as you don't get crits untill you actually dominate someone, or if you get a medic to inv' you. It would make gameplay less.. random.

I don't intend for this to sound arguementative. That is just my opinion.

 

[ryodoan]

The way I feel that it should work is this way:

- The more dominated you get, the more crits you get
- The lower your K/D ratio, the more crits you get
- The more Dominations you dish out, the less crits you get
- The higher your K/D ratio, the fewer crits you get.

I would rather crits just got taken out, they are a random insta-gib that I think really takes away from the game. I would rather know that when I die, its because I just got killed by someone who was better than me, not just some random noob that got lucky with a crit.

 

[Paria]

with the amount of non-hitscan weapons in the game, if you remove crits people just move onto demo-spam , soldier spam as the next cause of there death, everyone loves to moan about how unskilled the other player was and how lucky they were

it's always a lucky crit that kills eveyone

even if they get smacked in the face from 50 yards from a pipe bomb - if it happens to be a crit it would also be a lucky crit

all the %crit rates for weapons are on the valve stats page, i thought it was widely know that melee weapons crit alot more :confused1:

as for the scout pistol vs soldiers rockets, its not such a simple comparison as you have to factor in rate of fire also e.g the crit streaks on a heavy weapon chain gun. Indivicually they are weaker than a soldier rocket but factor in the rate of fire and its pretty badass.

I can understand from a competitive nature why such randomness isnt liked, but for messing around on a public i think there are both positive and negative sides to it.

 

[Apex_]

I've been talking this over with friends, subadmins on my server and random players who join and it's pretty mixed. Some people are adamant about keeping them, others grumble about getting killed by soldiers and how the game is too random and requires less skill etc with crits. I like them to a degree, but definitely have days where I completely loathe them and wish them gone.

Some people have been running no crit servers for months using the TFTrue server plugin. As was stressed in the quality thread over in Map Discussion, people that dislike crits are one facet of the TF2 community along with folks like myself that play with friendly fire enabled or people that disable spawn times. I'm sure there will be servers for everyone

 

[Koei]

The way I feel that it should work is this way:

- The more dominated you get, the more crits you get
- The lower your K/D ratio, the more crits you get
- The more Dominations you dish out, the less crits you get
- The higher your K/D ratio, the fewer crits you get.

I would rather crits just got taken out, they are a random insta-gib that I think really takes away from the game. I would rather know that when I die, its because I just got killed by someone who was better than me, not just some random noob that got lucky with a crit.

This is actually worse. So I get uuh.....punished for being superior to other players? Lets make the game more noob friendly than it already is.

I do agree that some crits need nerfing: rockets and stickies. The rest is 100% fine. I believe a crit rocket doet 270 damage or something.

 

[ryodoan]

This is actually worse. So I get uuh.....punished for being superior to other players? Lets make the game more noob friendly than it already is.

So you think its better to make it easier for someone who is already good at the game and piss off new players?

 

[Koei]

So you think its better to make it easier for someone who is already good at the game and piss off new players?

Well yes. They should become better. I'd prefer a team where every member scores about the same amount of points. But that's not the case. I usually end up with at least 3-4 times the score of the worst player in the team. Crits help me mow down the enemy team faster so we can all pray for a better balance in the next game . That's why I prefer playing with regulars against regulars. Much better games. But it is wrong to just give the newbees and noobs a major advantage in damage per projectile. That way they will never master the game.

Do you play UT (99, '04, 3) instagib? Do you think newbees should get a wider beam so they can hit easier? Do you think the better players should be punished by making their instagib weapons weaker so they have to hit twice to kill?

 

[Shmitz]

It's a matter of dynamics. A game should never make it so that a player who gets an early lead will always keep that lead because it gets easier for him. Think of it this way: the better you are, the more you have to rely on your own skill.


Personally though, I don't think the scoreboard should have any impact on crits. It rather shafts the people who sit around defending critical areas, or go on a suicide mission to take down a sentry or tag a heavily guarded briefcase in order to reset the countdown and buy the team some time. Conversely, it rewards the players who are less interested in team objectives and more interested in just killing every person they see.

 

[Koei]

It's a matter of dynamics. A game should never make it so that a player who gets an early lead will always keep that lead because it gets easier for him. Think of it this way: the better you are, the more you have to rely on your own skill.


Personally though, I don't think the scoreboard should have any impact on crits. It rather shafts the people who sit around defending critical areas, or go on a suicide mission to take down a sentry or tag a heavily guarded briefcase in order to reset the countdown and buy the team some time. Conversely, it rewards the players who are less interested in team objectives and more interested in just killing every person they see.

Scoreboard or anything doesn't have an impact on crits. I believe it's the last XX seconds of gameplay that have and impact on crit chance. I believe it's 20 or 30 seconds. So if you did loads of damage in the last couple of seconds it's a good chance to next bunch of projectiles you throw at the enemy are crits.

Going for objectives and killing loads of people go hand in hand. At least the way I play.

 

[MrAlBobo]

not really many other people who favor the defaults here...

Yesterday i got killed by a crit every time for 6 lives...something that would get you kind of pissed no? I still would not turn off the crits. Randomness is what makes this game truly awesome.
As for the respawn times...i do not think they should be off; change relative to the number of players in the server, maybe. If you are on 2fort for instance and you've got a good game going, you have just enough time in the respawn time to make some kind of comment to the person that killed you, that alone makes the game more fun. I always get annoyed when attacking at dustbowl and i have no time to say anything.

And now...the ammo nerf, the change for rockets and stickies was perfect, exactly the range i wanted, but the regular nades was terrible, using those takes some degree of skill especially if you try to use them long range, not to mention spamming them is not exactly the most effective thing. And nothing is more awesome then nailing a scout midair with them.

 

[crazychicken]

respawn times dont amke the game and crits are a favoured variable more popular on fast respawn servers ebcause players dont have to wait to respawn after getting kileld in the first 10 seconds of their last life.

The soldiers limited ammo has more of an affect on his ability to attack far more which I think is more important than bickering about respawn time. if you want to be pedantic team fortress has never had respawn time. the dynamic of the game and map alters to faster respawn so it isn't just a fragfest and teamplay is more important arguably because without it you will be steam rolled. As other peope have noted dustbowl is impossible to win on fast respawn without good teamwork. Good players on normal spawn servers can win with default settings as they dont have to worry about another wave of attack for 25 more secs

 

[A Boojum Snark]

I still feel that with crits and respawn time it's something so integral to the gameplay valve should have cracked down on it and recoded things to make them impossible to change on the server. Then do it again if a way around is found. and again.

Allowing them to be optional just fractures the playerbase, and that is never a good thing.

 

[Shmitz]

One very important aspect of respawn timers that most people don't consider is that the encourage team play. When everyone respawns the instant they die, they spawn alone, and walk out of the spawn room alone, and go off to find someone to kill alone.

When you spawn with other people because of an enforced delay, if you're even half a good player, chances are you'll probably end up following or being followed, and when you do encounter the enemy, you'll be playing Team Fortress, not Army of One Fortress.

 

[Koei]

I still feel that with crits and respawn time it's something so integral to the gameplay valve should have cracked down on it and recoded things to make them impossible to change on the server. Then do it again if a way around is found. and again.

Allowing them to be optional just fractures the playerbase, and that is never a good thing.

They changed it under pressure of the community I think.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

The mob is stupid. The "community" has been playing the game for 6 months. Valve has been developing it for TEN YEARS. I think valve knows how they want their game to work, thus they should have put their foot down

 

[Apex_]

Disallowing modifications of the game would be almost hypocritical considering Team Fortress began as a mod itself. If Quake was locked down so no one could mod it, we wouldn't have TF2 at all. Who's to say someone won't come up with some mod that betters the game?

I absolutely disagree with saying "Valve are pros and have been working on the game for years so they're 100% correct". I've been running a server with friendly fire modded into it since it was removed from the beta. Who are you to tell me my way of playing is wrong and I should go play another game? Given the sheer variety of mods and non-standard map types out there, how large do you think the TF2 community would be if everyone who didn't like a stock TF2 setting left for some other game? More importantly, has it occurred to you that maybe we don't want to play another game, but find TF2 with some tweaks is much more fun than any Battlefield or Call of Duty?

I don't mean to rant or sound hostile, but I've been putting up with players flat out demanding I disable friendly fire on my own server because they didn't like it and "the game wasn't meant to be played that way". Just because it's not meant to doesn't mean that it's wrong! This is why I kind of like Valve's server browser update to separate modded servers from stock ones, so it's easier to find what you want to play in the vast sea of servers.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Do not even TRY to bring that "tf is a mod itself" stuff into it. People drastically sub-modding a game is a major peeve of mine. Quake to TF was full mod, HL to DoD was a full mod, custom maps do not change the game itself. I have no problem with these things.

But things like NeoTF, whatever the one for TF2 is called, or changing things that are inherently linked to the flow and structure of gameplay while still residing within the realm of the original game only serve to fracture the community among different groups of server settings.

Who am I to say you are playing wrong? I wouldn't exactly say this is a wrong or right issue. But all the same, if you say that to me, I say to you... who are you to say your preferred mod to the game is better than valve's structure they worked on for so long?

</rant> yes that was very angry and ranty, but as I said it's a huge peeve of mine