New blog post - You better hold on to your head, mate.

[drp]

That's not the issue they're addressing. Specifically, they are trying to do something about the negative experience of dying without having had a chance to actually do anything about it.

On the other hand, my usual reaction when I get sniped repeatedly because the rest of my team isn't doing anything about it is to take a different route, or switch to spy or some other class that can kill the sniper.

Still, I'm all for encouraging snipers to get closer to the action, because that also gets them more involved with pushing map objectives, as opposed to just sitting back and killing for killing's sake.

'dying without having a chance to do anything about it' kind of throws some red flags for me. death is always avoidable in the game. no matter what. you are never in a situation where death is not avoidable one way or another.

 

[Pianodan]

I have to say, I think the death cam was a good way of at least partially averting the "disconnected" feeling. Sure, you got killed ONCE, but if the same sniper gets you again, there's no way of saying you didn't know about him.

 

[Shmitz]

'dying without having a chance to do anything about it' kind of throws some red flags for me. death is always avoidable in the game. no matter what. you are never in a situation where death is not avoidable one way or another.

That could be argued... after all, one could just sit around in the spawn room for the entire round and avoid death quite handily. But I think that's missing the point.

You die unexpectedly, and the freeze cam shows a spy sneaking away or a sniper way off in the distance. You ask yourself "given what I knew at the time, should I have reasonably taken a different action that would have resulted in me not dying". If you died because you did not know about the threat and could have never known about the threat until it was too late, I think it's fair to say that the answer is no, and the death was unavoidable.

And before you try to claim there's never a situation where you wouldn't know about the threat: For snipers, the reaction time for shooting someone coming around a corner is less than the time it takes for the victim to scan all possible sniper locations to see if there is anyone out there. For spies, well, I've been backstabbed while doing 360 spins out in the open without any teammates around, and not seeing the spy until the freezecam.

 

[grazr]

I think the backburner is the worst alt weapon included in these regards.

Atleast with the snipers you can come out jumping and strafing and ducking between cover whilst eraticly spamming sniper locations. Any intelligent player will always assume there is a sniper at far off corners and take relavent caution. If there's a really good sniper, as Shmitz said, he changes roles. Sniper is my anti-class (soldier) so it'd be impractical to do battle with them. I'll take a different route or do something more productive than getting headshot constantly.

Atleast with spies you can check your back (although this leaves you generally at a disadvantage from most directions as you'll have to refocus on threats from other directions, but atleast you wont suffer a backstab and probably make it to a health pack if you do survive being caught off gaurd whilst trying to be overly alert). Generally a spy will have to be cautious, using his cloak and disguises wisely. Again, assume there is always someone ready to come at you from behind.

But a backburner death is the most annoying of deaths. The backburner pyro is just as dangerous coming from the front so turning to fend him off makes little difference, especially as you just lost 75% of your health, and even if you manage to crit kill him you'll burn to death without a medic/water/hp kit. It's exactly how they described the situation they wanted to avoid with the snipers. Being caught in the middle of battle concerned with a more immediate threat. Every time i get killed by one i just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Pre-occupied with a more immediate threat, having expended too much ammo to fend the offending pyro off.

The only thing worse than a backburner pyro flanking you in the middle of combat are suicidal spies who backstab you even though they are garaunteed to die immediately after via a sentry or my whole friggin defence stood around me.

But backburner bashing aside i had hoped the alt smg would have been a trap of some kind. I envisioned a tazer trap that would deal a huge amount of damage immediately and have a fall off effect similar to the flare. 50hp damage with 5 hp per second for 5 seconds or something. This would allow a sniper to defend his position. He would be able to use it in multiple circumstances. Boobytrap the intel, or a doorway or defend one of his immediate flanks to increase his personal survival chances. the triggering of the trap would also alert him to any flanking threat. Or he could just place it under his feet to punish those who killed him in close combat, also allowing chances for revenge kills against wounded players. This would help prevent the most annoying sniper death, from players who are retreating and happen to pass by your location by circumstance. It would also not strengthen his close range weakness as cloaked/disguised spies wont trigger the trap and he will be without his smg. I had imagined the previous trap would disappear upon respawn to stop snipers placing loads, but still allowing the trap to trigger after death.

But instead he gets a jar of piss.

I can see how it would be hard to create an alternate weapon for a sniper rifle, it's a pretty destingiushed weapon and role, and creating an alt weapon for it wont necasserily stop the so called unavoidable headshot problem. Nothing comes to mind other than something that deals damage over time and messes an assaults cohesion. But for gods sake we don't need another weapon that makes it more difficult to attack a base. Natascha slows enemies down, the sandman stuns enemies outright, including uber's and the compression blast if used properly blocks whole assaults.

I like the idea of a hollow point round that deals damage constantly (bleeding) until a player finds a hpkit or a medic heals 50hp worth of life. It'll proper F*** up heavies and soldiers. Their usual targets anyway. Remove headshot crit kills but allow for an increase firing rate and ability to finish off units not killed in a single shot.

 

[Mar]

I think mar has some serious issues with TF2, the game really hasn't changed all that much since initial release, sure there are some things that aren't so great but they're not really big things.
If the new stuff valve are adding irks you that much, just stop playing.

You guys are missing the point. TF2 is the best game I have ever played. I love it with my entirety. That's why I get so worked up when Valve does something stupid to it, no matter how trivial. If they thought about some stuff and tested it out with high level players, (Valve has stated several times that a majority of their playtesting is done my the developers. Valve has also hosted a few matches against comp players were they lost terrible and resorted to cheating.) they would have less stupid things in this game.

This game is so important to me that I fuse over every trivial detail. Also it really irks me how Valve doesn't admit that their sometimes wrong and that they rarely undo some of their mistakes. *cough*sandman*cough*

EDIT:

To me, long range isn't the defining aspect of the Sniper's play style, it's just a natural strategy that supports that play style. The important part is in dealing instant, massive damage to single targets using quick reflexes and great accuracy.

This is exactly what the sniper is about. But it needs to be from a distance, being that scouts basically due this, but up closes. But we need to wait and see what happens in the next update. I just hope Valve doesn't end up being hypocritical in this update unlike the last few.

 

[lerlerson]

It makes sense to me. With a Spy, or even a Backburner Pyro, unless you're playing with music, you're going to hear the Pyro/Spy if they try to sneak up on you, and if they caught you anyways they either found a good ambush spot that you should have taken a side-glance at, or they busted into a big group of people and got lucky. With the Sniper, he just sits way far back, moves a little so he can hit you, shoots you, kills you, rinse, repeat.

Of course, this isn't all Snipers, but it's what makes Snipers so annoying. Personally, I have no problems with Snipers, since that would be hypocritical of me. I'm mainly a Spy player, and we're very similar in form and function. Long-range and short-range assassination, two sides of a coin. But I at least understand the point here.

Plus, maybe I'll play the Sniper now. I have terrible long-range aim. I play a great Scout though, so who knows what's up with that.

 

[Void]

A Sniper is a Sniper if he's Smart, Efficient, and has a plan to Kill everyone he meets. Not if he has a Long-range weapon or not.

 

[MrAlBobo]

If they thought about some stuff and tested it out with high level players, (Valve has stated several times that a majority of their playtesting is done my the developers.

sigh...isn't valve slow enough as it is? what you are suggesting is a closed beta for every update they ever plan on doing...all this would accomplish is having the same results over a longer period of time. Thousands of players testing something leads to results within a day, 20 people testing everything would take weeks. I like valves method of testing updates, and hope it continues.

A Sniper is a Sniper if he's Smart, Efficient, and has a plan to Kill everyone he meets. Not if he has a Long-range weapon or not.

...Win...just...win

 

[Charron]

Just something I've been thinking.... "a little closer" doesn't equal "close". The way I see it, there's Very Close Range (melee), Close Range (flamethrower), Midrange (shotguns), Long Range (revolver), then Very Long Range (sniper). Pulling the Sniper from Very Long to Long or even Midrange brings him closer, but still lets him stay a little ways out of the action.

 

[Mar]

sigh...isn't valve slow enough as it is? what you are suggesting is a closed beta for every update they ever plan on doing...all this would accomplish is having the same results over a longer period of time. Thousands of players testing something leads to results within a day, 20 people testing everything would take weeks. I like valves method of testing updates, and hope it continues.

No, instead of picking up Joe shmooh that they picked up off the streets, or testing it themselves, select a few comp teams, test with them, and then release a good update. Their current method is to make an update release it and not change anything, maybe a few numbers. Did the sandwich and the sandman stink. Yes, but they changed nothing except for a few numbers. They still haven't made the blut a bit less powerful, and that would take them what, 5 minutes of coding to reduce the damage of it and the health it regens. But why don't they do that?

There system doesn't work. Right now it's release it and only change it if you fell like it.

 

[MrAlBobo]

No, instead of picking up Joe shmooh that they picked up off the streets, or testing it themselves, select a few comp teams, test with them, and then release a good update. Their current method is to make an update release it and not change anything, maybe a few numbers. Did the sandwich and the sandman stink. Yes, but they changed nothing except for a few numbers. They still haven't made the blut a bit less powerful, and that would take them what, 5 minutes of coding to reduce the damage of it and the health it regens. But why don't they do that?

There system doesn't work. Right now it's release it and only change it if you fell like it.

im not suggesting they pick up anyone, i want even less of a beta testing phase. I fear any game where comp players have control of the updates, as this will be the most boring game imaginable. Randomness is good, a growing and changing game is good, quick releases of updates is good, quick fixes of incredibly broken updates are good.

What exactly do you have against the sandwich? its amusing and breaks the medic dependence somewhat

And the sandman? Oh no I can't move breifly, this of course is sooo much worse then being hit by a crit rocket, or sniped, which...you know tend to be instant kills Deal with it

You happen to be the 1st person ive ever seen actually call the blut outright broken, i see no problem, a medic should have some a gun of that calibur. If your problem is that it is clearly better then the 1st gun...well...i happen to think that the 1st gun needs to be improved, not the blut dumbed down.

I only have three problems with valves updates as it stands, the crouch update which ruined a few paths on a few maps. The FaN, its...just garbage...I happen to like to use melee alot...and this is a friggen anti-melee gun...its annoying. The third thing is the multi-core update they taunted us with; before update: 60fps average, after update: 180fps, after "fix" to update: 60fps. Those were of course my fps.

Even with the updates I didn't like, I still say that reducing testing time would be in favor of the game.

 

[Mar]

Alright, let me take this in pieces. Now note that I'm simply pointing out from my comp player perspective, and chances are if you don't understand me right now, you don't get the comp scene, and I you can't see it from my point, please try not to argue.

im not suggesting they pick up anyone, i want even less of a beta testing phase.

I'd also like less of a beta testing, if they decided to actually fix the stuff once they released it.

I fear any game where comp players have control of the updates, as this will be the most boring game imaginable. Randomness is good, a growing and changing game is good, quick releases of updates is good, quick fixes of incredibly broken updates are good.

Why don't want to make the game boring, we simply want it to be as much about skill and as little as a random dice roll as possible. We want our practice to pay off. Also, unfortantely Valve is ignoring the stuff that needs to be fixed and buffed, which is the only flaw in the system that your propose. (which I like.)

What exactly do you have against the sandwich? its amusing and breaks the medic dependence somewhat

Sandwich is worthless compared to the shotgun. Also a heavy needs a medic to be effective in this game. The sandwich did nothing to change that. You need to stop to heal, and a still character in any game is dead meat.

What they should have done is given him an smg (ganster tommy gun, barrel cylinder style). This way the heavy would have to choose either range with mediocre damage, or high close range dps, but no range.

And the sandman? Oh no I can't move briefly, this of course is sooo much worse then being hit by a crit rocket, or sniped, which...you know tend to be instant kills Deal with it

If you play against scouts that can aim it, you will constantly be stunned, and it only takes 2 rockets to kill a stunned guy. Comp players don't play with crits. Snipers are weak close up, scouts aren't. scouts should not be intruding on the snipers role. If valve released a flying sentry gun that did aimbot headshots would you say deal with it?

You happen to be the 1st person ive ever seen actually call the blut outright broken, i see no problem, a medic should have some a gun of that calibur. If your problem is that it is clearly better then the 1st gun...well...i happen to think that the 1st gun needs to be improved, not the blut dumbed down.

The blut is extremely powerful. It has the damage of the old gun with the healing power. You can easily kill a charging pyro with it, and if your careful, a scout. This should never happen to the ultimate support class. The medic heals, not fights, Valve stated that in their dev commentary. The blut should only heal 2 health max, and do 1 damage per needle. This way you must decide between healing or DPS.

I only have three problems with valves updates as it stands, the crouch update which ruined a few paths on a few maps. The FaN, its...just garbage...I happen to like to use melee alot...and this is a friggen anti-melee gun...its annoying. The third thing is the multi-core update they taunted us with; before update: 60fps average, after update: 180fps, after "fix" to update: 60fps. Those were of course my fps.

Crouch update was a pain, and there was no need for it. It messed up a few soldier RJ spots to. The FAN should be a knock back, not a pop up, and it should do slightly less damage.

Even with the updates I didn't like, I still say that reducing testing time would be in favor of the game

I want this to, but for this to work Valve would need to admit it's mistakes and rework the FAN, sandwich, sandman, and bonk.
They also need to buff the heavy and nerf the scout.

 

[ChronoTriggerFan]

Why don't want to make the game boring, we simply want it to be as much about skill and as little as a random dice roll as possible.

You people are the only ones who can take a fun game, and turn it into competitive bleh. Life doesn't happen to be 100% equal, and thats what makes it interesting. Hearing you complain about every tiny thing that you think is too good gets annoying.

You are also suggesting that their testing be done by people who play the game different than it was designed. Your argument that the developers don't play as well as your people is because they don't take the game as serious as you, and don't "train".

 

[cornontheCoD]

No, instead of picking up Joe shmooh that they picked up off the streets, or testing it themselves, select a few comp teams, test with them, and then release a good update. ......


.......They still haven't made the blut a bit less powerful, and that would take them what, 5 minutes of coding to reduce the damage of it and the health it regens. But why don't they do that?

Contradiction much? You're saying they should hardcore test each update, and then you complain about how they don't do a half-ass job of "fixing" the Blutslaughter.

As a side note, why is competitive playing so important to you? Why don't you just play the game for, you know, FUN!?

 

[Mar]

Comp play is fun. Crits are lame. I am good enough to go into a random pub server and go on a kill streak only to get killed by a crit when a normal shot wouldn't have killed me. When the only way people can kill me is with a random roll of the dice, that dice roll isn't that fun.

And about the blut, they would just need to tweak the numbers a bit which would take 5 minutes to do.

PS. You guys didn't read the disclaimer did you? If you don't get the comp scene, and therefore can't understand why I discuss this game so thoroughly, then please don't argue with me because we are on 2 different perpendicular levels and our points aren't going threw each others heads.

PSS. I also enjoy debating.

 

[grazr]

Hey guys, lay of Mar, he's only giving his opinion. It's not a war.

Besides, the Blut is powerful, it completely negates the regular needle gun and if it's not as powerful as you say then how come all the "battle medic" coinage. The Blut was designed to give medics a fighting chance to escape combat with their charge if their healee died, unfortunately it turned out powerful enough to oppose most weapons in the game. Infact the soldier's burst damage seems to be the only effective mute to it other than a heavy catching a med in the open.

Mar's points are just as valid as the counter points, the trouble is there is so much middle ground to form opinions on that they form two sides of a coin.

Speaking as a self pro-claimed good player there's nothing more infuriating than a lucky crit shot. Sure it evens out the game on a minor level but sometimes it doesn't, and even makes the game unfun. Especially when you fall victim to the flaws of this game mechanic more frequently than design intended. It happens, and you can't deny that it's not fun, I even hate to kill people with random crits.

I'll also use the shotgun over the sandwhich anyday, especially after they sprinkled med packs all over 2fort. The sandwhich only encourages stand alone gameplay, which is exactly what the heavy is not supposed to do.

Mar's points show one half of the experience of a game and i can appreciate that. Just as i can appreciate how this game is supposed to be a laugh. People should be more appreciative of the two styles of play as neither have to play it either way so this hostily should really stop. There's enough servers out there to choose from. But this is slightly off topic and besides the point.

When it comes to play testing i think there's no quicker way than releasing these small updates to thousands of people and then fixing the issues with the invaluebly amount of feedback that results. It sees more changes in the game than closed play testing and quicker results. VALVe have also been thus far capable of releasing weapons that are hardly deemable as out right retarded which benifits from their professional design capabilities and personal play testing that still happens before a public release.

The stun pisses me off, the backburner pisses me off, attacking a Blut equiped medic pisses me off. But i can see the design choices as to why they exist, even if i hate them that much. The pyro didn't get played much because of his inability to get kill points (which was bad, as an assault class). The medic was too vulnerable and uber's overly menacing.

 

[Nineaxis]

The audience of TF2 is... wait for it... anyone with a PC, Steam, mouse, and keyboard. Not "highly trained" competitive players. So VALVe, likewise, designs for... the general potential player population, not those few who are whiney, arrogant idiots who don't understand the concept of fun.

Don't tell us to not debate with you because we don't understand the comp scene, because by the same logic, you shouldn't debate with us because you obviously don't understand the noncompetitive scene.

 

[Mar]

No, I can't stand when you attack the comp scene and you base your attack on something you don't understand. Like when you say, "why don't you comp players play for fun." That infuriates me becuase a competitive game is fun.

Also, if comp players balanced the game, it would be balanced. Why is that such a bad thing? All 9 classes would be equally viable, there wouldn't be a waste of a weapon slot like the bonk, and I bet you the pubbers that just play with out thought would still be happy becuase they been happy with every single morsel valve has fed them.

 

[Jazz]

I like how a post about the sniper update has turned into a battle between pub servers and comp play.

Back on topic pleaaaaasseeeee.

 

[Mar]

There isn't much to talk about except pure speculation. Valve gave us no meat so there really is nothing to discuss.