New blog post - You better hold on to your head, mate.

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Void, May 5, 2009.

  1. Void

    aa Void Local Man Unable To Map, Sources Say

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    http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477

    Doesn't necessarily mean a close range, small weapon... could perhaps be a Sniper that does more damage the closer you are, rather than the more precise you are. Making headshots less infuriating, and more time to spot your Australian fiend.
     
  2. drp

    aa drp

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    this saddens me. as sniper being my main class, i can see me picking up scout or something
     
  3. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    On one hand, I am glad valve has finally stated the exact same thing I have always felt about "unavoidable deaths"...
    on the other hand it also saddens me that they recognized this issue and yet left in headshotting snipers and backstabbing spies rather than completely reworking and/or removing the classes PLUS added criticals :(

    That said, their joking about themselves and reading to the Doctor Who music was fun :D
     
  4. TheDarkerSideofYourShadow

    TheDarkerSideofYourShadow L10: Glamorous Member

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    Hmmm, limited range weapon that slows people when hit with it? Maybe extremely slow rate of fire/small clip with long reload? Idk what this unlockable will be, but I'm at least interested in seeing how they'll attempt to pull this off.
     
  5. StoneFrog

    StoneFrog L6: Sharp Member

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    I had once proposed the unlockable for the Sniper Rifle to essentially be a rifle with faster charge and no crits. The blessing would be that you could shoot enemies in the leg and whatnot to cripple them and slow them down, the same way legshots would with Snipers in Team Fortress Classic.

    Since the focus of Valve's unlockables seems to be encouraging different playstyles, it would allow less skilled Snipers to help the team. Rather than outright killing individual targets, they could help in making groups of oncoming foes more vulnerable for their teammates.
     
  6. Rasputin

    Rasputin L3: Member

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    I know I do not enjoy being killed by snipers for the exact reasons they mentioned. The only problem is how good it feels when you do well with a sniper and find yourself enjoying it. It only makes me feel like a hypocrite.
    As for the new sniper... I don't know, maybe a crossbow or something of the like where there might still be range involved, yet not the whole shooting from an entire football fields length thing.
     
  7. Mar

    Mar Banned

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    They say

    "The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn't have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you're very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive."

    Yet they put in the stun.

    They also say

    "Our starting theory was that, for death to be a positive experience, players had to feel like they could have avoided dying if they'd done something different."

    Then they add crits and random damage!

    The #1 rule they broke about the 9-class system, they even said it themselves during the heavy update.

    "Does it affect the main weaknesses of the class? What could opponents do against an entire team of this class armed with your idea? Class balance is more a function of the weaknesses of each class than their strengths. Weaknesses provide population control, where the value of a counter class rises as a class's population rises. i.e. Snipers become more valuable the more Heavies there are on the enemy team. As a result, we're very wary of reducing a class's weaknesses."

    A class is defined by its weakness, not its strengths. By giving the sniper a viable up close option they are breaking this rule. Its not just a give and take with weapons... its such a simplistic way to look at everything and won't work in the long run. You actually have to think about a new and unique weapon that has the same weakness but a new strength, removing the long range strength for an up close option will... as Jefferson put it, deserve neither and lose both.

    The saddest part... 22 years to figure out that people don't like dying... that people want to be killed base on skill and want a fighting chance... they've lost their way. At this point in time, i don't think they know what they're doing with this game.


    PS. This was written my an acquaintance of mine, we both share the same opinion, but he said it much more eloquently then me.
     
  8. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    22 years was a joke, TF came out in '96. The "dont like dying" thing isn't a new finding, they said it was "22" years ago. :p
     
  9. MrAlBobo

    MrAlBobo L13: Stunning Member

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    lmao, while reading that i was think, damn, mar made an impressive arguement, then you end with the line saying it wasn't you...have to admit, it made me laugh

    though i see what is being said, by making snipers be up close its changes the alignment of the game (so far anyways) by moving snipers closer to the action, spys will not be able to stop them as easily, though now there may be less need to stop them

    basically any class that thrives on being away from the main action will have a bit less of a purpose

    but meh, ill wait and see the results
     
  10. TheBladeRoden

    TheBladeRoden L7: Fancy Member

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    hmm, I'm predicting no scope, damage falloff, but faster firing rate,

    or maybe a cutting laser. Where the challenge will be holding it on target for max damage,
     
  11. Mar

    Mar Banned

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    My spin on it. Nice job f***ing up the basic 9 class system. Tons of games have done it before and they all pulled it off. You even pulled it off. Before any updates TF2 was the most balanced game out there (other then QWF). But then you made these stupid updates just to boost your sales that ruined the game. Medic and Pyro were good, but still need a little tweak, but the rest were a tragic failure.

    Nice job screwing up the game that you had already made perfect.
     
  12. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    If the game sucks and is fucked up by the developers, drop it.

    That's the best thing you can do. If you don't like the way TF2 has become, you might as well get a mass movement to stop playing it.
     
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  13. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    I understand that you don't like these updates (although I can hardly gather a lot of sensible reasons as to why), but do people really have to complain about them in every single topic that's slightly relevant? The Steam Forums is a nice place for spreading Valve hate, if that's what you want.

    It would be nice if we could discuss the Sniper update in particular, not turn this into another general update discussion. So to support that, here we go:

    I've been thinking that making the Sniper a closer combat class is a good idea, so that he'll become more of a part of the team and more engaged in what's actually going on. I'm kind of split between thinking that a closer-range rifle is a good idea, and thinking that this completely ruins the Sniper's role. It's both at the same time, I guess. I'm excited about what Valve might do to get him closer to the action, but I can't really figure out what to think about this.
     
  14. Randdalf

    aa Randdalf

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    I'm fine with the updates, I just wish the Scout updates weren't so useless, and annoying. FAN and Sandman are big mistakes, and I hope they reimagine the Sandman in the Sniper update, it's just painful being BONK!ed and not being able to do anything whilst the entire enemy team rushes at you.
     
  15. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    To me, long range isn't the defining aspect of the Sniper's play style, it's just a natural strategy that supports that play style. The important part is in dealing instant, massive damage to single targets using quick reflexes and great accuracy. If this can be retained at a shorter distance, I don't think the new weapon will sour that experience.

    Granted, I rarely play sniper, so I may not actually know what I'm talking about here. Those are just my two cents. =P
     
  16. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    You're half right, I think. But remember that precision with the sniper rifle also depends on your distance - try zooming in on a someone ten feet from you, and you can't see shite (unless you're pro :O).

    Maybe their new rifle will be easier to zoom at short range? More like iron sights in some games, I guess.
     
  17. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I think mar has some serious issues with TF2, the game really hasn't changed all that much since initial release, sure there are some things that aren't so great but they're not really big things.
    If the new stuff valve are adding irks you that much, just stop playing.
     
  18. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

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    I'm a little bit puzzled by the people who are not liking the sound of this, or are even considering not playing Sniper. The alternate weapons are still optional, after all. You can fall back to your old tactics.

    If you're allowed to still use the original rifle, the trick is making the updated weapon desirable enough to risk standing closer to your targets. I'm getting the impression that the Sniper might get a rifle that remains zoomed-in after you fire shots, but only grants instant kills at close ranges. The dot in your sight could indicate whether or not a target is in range for a head shot. This would allow more rapid head shots, but bring the sniper in closer to make him more vulnerable.
     
  19. The Asylum

    aa The Asylum

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    I don't see what the worthwhile trade-off a player would get for using a closer-range sniper rifle would be. The whole Sniper game is long-distance combat, well out of the reach of overy other class except of course other snipers.

    As far as the blog post goes, I honestly don't get why they feel every player has to have a chance to kill everyone near or far, behind or in front, or anywhere on the map. What makes Team Fortress Team Fortress is that you, as an individual, have strengths and weaknesses, and the rest of your team (hopefully) compensates you, and vice-versa. You know, that outlandish concept of "Teamwork" nonsense.
     
  20. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    That's not the issue they're addressing. Specifically, they are trying to do something about the negative experience of dying without having had a chance to actually do anything about it.

    On the other hand, my usual reaction when I get sniped repeatedly because the rest of my team isn't doing anything about it is to take a different route, or switch to spy or some other class that can kill the sniper.

    Still, I'm all for encouraging snipers to get closer to the action, because that also gets them more involved with pushing map objectives, as opposed to just sitting back and killing for killing's sake.