Looking for Judges! Payload Contest

[LeSwordfish]

Finishing surely isn't everything, and I say that as someone who didn't finish, yes. But it's a vote. People choose the ones they think are best. Their criteria might be different to yours.

Dealwithitmole.jpg


Or possibly dealwithitmole.gif. I think the gif was better.

-You're welcome. *Fr0z3n

 

[Fruity Snacks]

... there are maps in the contest which have either seethrough textures or devtextures and my map, which is basically done without any huge flaws, doesn't get through to the contest and the maps that have these things i mentioned, might get in

Note this part here.
The people who are voting are NOT out to get you. We know our stuff. If your map doesn't make it through even though it is "finished", and maps that have dev textures do get through (and are "unfinished") then it should be obvious, that those maps just play much better than yours, and that you might still have huge flaws in the map. OR your map might play well, but the others just play better. This is a fun contest, don't worry about taking it seriously.

This is your friend.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

On the subject of finished vs unfinished, dev textures, and the like, I would like to point out one thing...

PLR Nightfall's final submission to the PLR/ADCTF contest had an unfinished largely dev-texture third stage. It then took first place in the PLR category anyway. It was then bought by valve after being finished up.

 

[Pocket]

ics does kind of have a point: How many of us over in the preliminary voting thread just looked over the full list and picked out the maps we could recall playing, rather than making sure we had played through all of them at least once?

 

[Wilson]

ics does kind of have a point: How many of us over in the preliminary voting thread just looked over the full list and picked out the maps we could recall playing, rather than making sure we had played through all of them at least once?

We did have contest map tests plenty of times before the voting began.

 

[Sergis]

ics does kind of have a point: How many of us over in the preliminary voting thread just looked over the full list and picked out the maps we could recall playing, rather than making sure we had played through all of them at least once?

i didnt play all of the maps because for quite a few of them it was clear anyway that they will not be in my top 10 so why would i even bother

which is why i wanted 1-10 ratings

i might go over the eliminated ones and try to give some feedbacks but no promises there

 

[ForbiddenDonut]

ics does kind of have a point: How many of us over in the preliminary voting thread just looked over the full list and picked out the maps we could recall playing, rather than making sure we had played through all of them at least once?

I made sure to at least look at every map on the list. And to be honest, it was a close call for my top ten. I did enjoy ics' map. Unfortunately, we only have ten slots to pick from. And there were many, many high quality maps in this contest.

If I recall correctly, Ravidge noted that, while we are voting for ten maps, that doesn't mean only ten maps will be in the final draw. The whole purpose of the preliminary voting was to cut the work load for the judges; not to single out designers for their contribution.

Regardless, and I say this for all the contest participants: if your map didn't make it past preliminary voting, then go over your feedback page, look at the comments in your thread and think up the reasons why it was eliminated. Look at your competition: what did they do right? Look at Valve's maps: they aren't perfect, but they are always good examples to go off of. Then make changes or be aware of your mistakes for your next map.

That's whole idea of this website, isn't it? To improve.

 

[Monsterclip]

We did have contest map tests plenty of times before the voting began.

This isn't an excuse. People working on their maps had up to the deadline to fix any of the problems that you surely had already set your prejudice on. If you didn't test and base your map selection solely on what was submitted after the deadline, you did a disservice to everyone in the contest.

I'm not getting worked up over it, it's just the way I feel about that particular subject, especially coming from someone who was so adamant about people listening to the feedback from play tests.

 

[grazr]

In my experience gameplay always trumps aesthetics, especially in a contest where those contributing and voting understand the creative process and that it is long and arduous. Having aesthetics is and always will be the "cherry on the top".

It is true that there is an issue that many people will vote based on the maps they experienced which is why i'm refraining from voting in the prelims because i've only played 12 of the maps and don't want to vicariously vote out certain maps simply because i have missed them. But then this is still an issue that could have been pro-actively avoided by the map authors.

I knew for a fact that this does play a small role in the voting process and made sure i had several weeks of testing before the deadline just so that people could get to know the map as much as get feedback and improve it. Because maps do tend to gather a following of fans. Escarpment is a prime example of that fact, that fanbase had a chance to grow and it was the authors involvement in the entire development process which allowed that to happen.

People who didn't do this have basically shot themselves in the foot in more ways than one and everything else is just excuses. Hopefully this will encourage you to come back next time stronger and more experienced.

 

[Wolfen]

I knew for a fact that this does play a small role in the voting process and made sure i had several weeks of testing before the deadline just so that people could get to know the map as much as get feedback and improve it. Because maps do tend to gather a following of fans. Escarpment is a prime example of that fact, that fanbase had a chance to grow and it was the authors involvement in the entire development process which allowed that to happen.

People who didn't do this have basically shot themselves in the foot in more ways than one and everything else is just excuses. Hopefully this will encourage you to come back next time stronger and more experienced.

This is very much true. People you don't even know will become friends or enemies of your maps over your testing period. But make sure you test it on the servers where the competition is being held.

My issue was I tested on the Gamers with Jobs server. Most of them had, and some still have, no clue who I am, but I received favorable feedback there over multiple tests and modified my map to their critiques and thoughts.

When I came here and posted in the last few weeks I was met with polar opposite opinions and thoughts compared to what I had been seeing.

On the plus side, I now have a few fans and interested parties on their server about what I'll do next while here it sounds like I have much more proving and work to do to try and get up to the same level as over there.

Also, I did think about sending in a resume to become a judge but I decided not too since I feel there are much better qualified individuals on here. I have a bad habit of nitpicking others maps while mine have the same issues. I think the judges should be people who know what their talking about.

 

[LeSwordfish]

And they will be, but I suspect it would take literally months for a small team of expert judges to choose accurately from amongst thirty maps. Unless they were to do a quick check of some and remove them based on first impressions, which would be, surprise surprise, worse than this.

As for the public vote, we'd end up in the exact same situation. No-one could play them all, certainly not enough for a true decision, and people would only rate the ones they'd played.

Personally I'm worried I'll do less well in this stage due to not being here to pimp myself. But eh.

 

[Wilson]

This isn't an excuse. People working on their maps had up to the deadline to fix any of the problems that you surely had already set your prejudice on. If you didn't test and base your map selection solely on what was submitted after the deadline, you did a disservice to everyone in the contest.

I'm not getting worked up over it, it's just the way I feel about that particular subject, especially coming from someone who was so adamant about people listening to the feedback from play tests.

I think you misunderstood me.
We started testing the maps almost soon as the upload thread closed.
Maps in that thread were gameplay wise finished for this contest, so i see no harm done at all.

 

[ics]

Note this part here.
The people who are voting are NOT out to get you. We know our stuff. If your map doesn't make it through even though it is "finished", and maps that have dev textures do get through (and are "unfinished") then it should be obvious, that those maps just play much better than yours, and that you might still have huge flaws in the map. OR your map might play well, but the others just play better. This is a fun contest, don't worry about taking it seriously.

This is your friend.

I wouldn't be so sure after reading all the comments, especially on _b4 at feedback (and i did see _b4 and _b8 earlier before contest ended. _b8, barely and no excuses on not having time to fix all the things.). It seems partly like general SPUF trolling instead of contributing. There are regulars that are familiar with eachothers and then some stranger comes in and.. you either like his map or don't. Prejudice is usually set right there and later versions never matter. There *are* usefull posts, there and i would shake hands with everyone who made a valid point that i was able to fix on later release, like you did with the framerate thing which you also posted on the thread so that i would definitely see it. I have also addressed rest of the issues and will run some more tests that i am currently conducting on 2 different size servers, 24 and 30 slots.

ics does kind of have a point: How many of us over in the preliminary voting thread just looked over the full list and picked out the maps we could recall playing, rather than making sure we had played through all of them at least once?

You just said the thing i was aiming for. Those that played previous versions of the maps before the contest one already might have made a judgement on particular map. Someone who sees it for the first time, has different impression. This is what Monsterclip was also talking about in his post.

Also, being an expert isn't requirement for being a judge. All we know the folks could be just regulars (or strangers?) from here that may have never done a finished map. That doesn't really matter does it as it's the first impression that counts. It's like that for me, i either like some map or i don't despite the later versions of it so i do understand if someone hates something i make or doesn't. It's not going to get me lose my sleep.

No, i'm not bitter either. Internet isn't good way to express how people think and feel.

 

[Tarry H Sruman]

Also, being an expert isn't requirement for being a judge. All we know the folks could be just regulars (or strangers?) from here that may have never done a finished map. That doesn't really matter does it as it's the first impression that counts.

Ravidge isn't going to select anyone who is incapable of giving fair, unbiased, and comprehensive feedback. Every map that makes it past the prelims will get a very extensive judging. You have to understand that the prelim process is necessary, because if there are nearly 30 maps up for judging the judges will either have to a) spend an inordinate amount of time playtesting and writing feedback, something most cannot do on account of school/work/etc, or b) Cut the amount of time given to each map and give everyone incomplete feedback.

 

[grazr]

...Also, being an expert isn't requirement for being a judge. All we know the folks could be just regulars (or strangers?) from here that may have never done a finished map...

The requirements for being a judge are basically the ability of critical thinking and the capacity to prove that skill with either essays or tutorials or diaries of previous map projects. Along with the understanding that you are making a commitment to the judgement process as the time spent playing maps and writing comprehensive reviews will be very, very time consuming.

The idea of the official judge is to weigh in a more professional view point so that the voting process doesn't get cluttered with purely subjective opinions as there are criteria to anylise and a brief to be met. We all understand that the average players feedback amounts to "don't like this", "this is cool", which is insufficient.

Have a little faith. We've been doing these contests for over 4 years. We've honed our judgement procedure to make everyone happy and the results fair and balanced. Winners will be decided on both popularity from the player base and skill reviewed by novices.

 

[Wilson]

I wouldn't be so sure after reading all the comments, especially on _b4 at feedback (and i did see _b4 and _b8 earlier before contest ended. _b8, barely and no excuses on not having time to fix all the things.). It seems partly like general SPUF trolling instead of contributing. There are regulars that are familiar with eachothers and then some stranger comes in and.. you either like his map or don't. Prejudice is usually set right there and later versions never matter.

Have you consider that there is something wrong with your map, instead of assuming everyone is trolling?

I just look at both feedback pages, and besides few dumb annotations, i see nothing out of ordinary.

 

[Ezekel]

ics does kind of have a point: How many of us over in the preliminary voting thread just looked over the full list and picked out the maps we could recall playing, rather than making sure we had played through all of them at least once?

this is/was my fundamental problem with how the ctf contest was handled.

people will vote in prelims usually without heavily considering the maps. i.e. based on either the screenshots or their memories of playing it (or a combo of both).
- this means that maps that were tested on tf2maps gamedays have a distinct advantage over those that were tested elsewhere, as the people who vote in the prelims will be able to look at the name/screenshot and go 'ah, i remember that map, it's layout was like this and when i played it i was able to uber that heavy near cp1' or similar.

although i'll also add that a good non-dev-texture screenshot will help garner attention if the map is one of the ones that people don't know well.


i don't have an outright solution unfortunately. i suppose you could insist that every map receive a 1 sentence review from each voter before their top ten get counted, but then we'd see a lot fewer voters.

- prelims did work well in the 72 hr contest last year, but i put that down to how everyone was on even footing pretty much with the pre-submission testing and the post-submission playthroughs. the testing period seemed to be quite high spirited in my opinion, and a good number of voters gave feedback for all the maps in the contest. perhaps it's partly to do with the time of year the the submission is set at (i.e. people right now are a lil burnt out from the major mapping content + tis the season to be sitting exams for most).