DotA 2 Beta

Discussion in 'Games Talk' started by Freyja, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    So YM suggested I make this thread.

    DotA 2 probably isn't going to come out for a while. But the beta's out there now, and some of you are probably already playing it.

    I personally really, really want a key, but so far I have been unable to attain one.

    So I put this thread here, in the hope that if one of you get lucky enough to get a key, and don't have someone closer to give your two spare keys too, then I hope you'll come here and give it to someone interested rather than selling it off.

    I'd love one, but I'm sure there are others who'd love one too, and I can wait like I already have. So use this thread to trade and request keys.
     
  2. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    How would one go by getting keys? Was there some event people went to or is this just "Sign up and your name is put into a hat" type of deal?

    I guess I'd like one too. I've gotten really into DotA esque games. I forsee this and League of Legends eating much of my life.
     
  3. markcocjin

    markcocjin L1: Registered

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    Guys, it's very very easy to get a key if you cannot wait to be chosen to play the beta.

    If you really really want to play it now, a Dota 2 beta key is an average worth 20 dollars on the market. And by market, I mean Steam Trading. You can just jump to http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1189

    This is legit. Someone will either have something [H] and ask for something for it [W] or want something and offer to purchase anything within their limits for it.

    I got my key after emailing a nice person in Valve and traded my two extra keys for Skyrim. Though some people will trade big things for it, some will settle for a smaller game. If you're willing to put up an offer, you can play it now.
     
  4. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    I am not going to trade away games or hats outside of this community. If I can't get one here, then I'll simply wait.
     
  5. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    I'm curious about this too, usually it's a matter of signing up to the relavent forums and keys get dished out randomly. Personally i'm waiting on a FireFall beta key. If i get a Dota one you can have it (isn't selling a key without a statutory monetary value illegal anyway?), but i doubt i will since i'm not actively seeking one out.
     
  6. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    I like the idea of putting everyone's names into a hat who wants one, and drawing them out when one becomes available.
     
  7. gamemaster1996

    gamemaster1996 L13: Stunning Member

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    My names been in for half a year... and still no key :(
    Oh well guess I cant be greedy, I have CSGO after all
     
  8. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

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    This is a good a thread as any for this question: Why dota 2 over LoL?
     
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  9. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    The thing is this:
    If you were a hardcore Dota player and want a game as close to it as possible, you chose Heroes of Newerth. It's more "hardcore" a game, doesn't do as many things differently. Many heroes are 1:1 copies.

    If you were interested in a slightly more casual/friendly approach, you chose LoL. It has a big community, is being shown at esports tournaments and has many more new and unique heroes. The Dominion map is very different from the 3 lanes map, but still uses the same heroes etc. obviously. It's a faster and less turtle-y map.

    So if you were a hardcore fan, you chose HoN. If you liked the initial concept but like the fact Riot actually is exploring the concept with a few more liberties, you chose LoL. (Originally HoN was a one-time purchase and LoL free-to-play, but now both are free-to-play anyway.)

    Dota 2 doesn't even have a niche. LoL and HoN has established communities and both are expanding on the original concept somewhat (HoN a lot less than LoL though). New casual players play LoL. Hardcore Dota fans play HoN. Some people play both.

    Dota 2 isn't innovating anything. It copies the heroes 1:1, the map is the same with its 3 lanes, there's denying and secret shops etc. so it's less friendly/casual and more complicated. It will most likely be free-to-play with a real-money store as well. The server browser actually has some big problems still too (but that may be beta).

    So... if you're a hardcore Dota fan but... actually aren't because you didn't choose to play HoN, you can soon play Dota 2? I don't get it either. There will be a huge amount of random Valve fanboys getting the game regardless. The Dota 2 promo hats are in the TF2 client already after all. So I guess if you never heard of AoS-style games... and somehow didn't notice any of the ~10 Dota clones that came out lately... and also never heard of LoL that has a lot of marketing and a huge community... you can soon play Dota 2?
     
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  10. gamemaster1996

    gamemaster1996 L13: Stunning Member

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    Because Valve are making Dota2 :p
     
  11. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

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    That's exactly why I ask, Trotim- I feel like Valve did absolutely no market research before tackling this huge project. They're almost entirely reliant on their fanbase here- LoL already has deeper audience penetration(excessively so), a good business model, and updates far frequently than Valve could hope for (new champ every two weeks or so) They could literally sell EP3 for 70 bucks a copy and it would still get bought, why buy up a WCIII modmaker and create a direct (nearly a port) of a game with no unifying lore or artstyle-let alone its inherent inability to be balanced (unique champs on each team) Such a dumb business decision, not that they won't roll in the dough, it's just a waste of effort where another, better game could have been made.
     
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  12. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    im not sure what it is, but i hear praise for dota2 while everyone says how terrible lol is. should probably actually play em. maybe more newbie friendly and with a better community i guess? that's the main complaint of these games...
     
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  13. Mr. Wimples

    Mr. Wimples L6: Sharp Member

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    I've heard a full spectrum of love and hate for each game individually. It seems to me all of the games need to be played quite extensively to really know which one you like better, and that requires both time and money in some cases.
     
  14. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    I used to play DoTA with my friends. I now play HoN and I have played LoL.

    I'm not a big member of the HoN community but I lurk the forum enough to know that DoTA 2 is stealing away a LOT of the player base because of what HoN is becoming.

    We really - me included - just want a DoTA game. That's what we became interested to start with. That's what DoTA 2 is, coupled with a new engine, valve support, all the new features DoTA 2 has over HoN and LoL (Like mentoring, source modding/console). If you ever liked DoTA, DoTA 2 is your godsend. A match of DoTA was super annoying to set up as a mod, and if someone disconnected, you were gone.
     
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  15. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    But even if all HoN players suddenly got Dota 2 that's still not a lot of people is it? Considering Valve has been working on this for like two years or something it's just... so very limited. Their goal IS to at least get more players than LoL right? At the moment I don't see that happening.

    On top of that... if you want to play Dota, you can still play Dota back on WC3. Yeah it may be a pain to set up and everything and a new version like this would be cool, but then the next thing you mention - Valve support - already kinda contradicts that. They are going to add more things to the game and it's going to be less and less Dota. Especially the real money store that's definitely coming is what I'm concerned about there considering how they handled it in TF2 (I personally would not trust Valve with updating an old game I liked at all in the first place, after all "Valve support" and their constant bloody updates are the very thing that made me not like TF2 anymore).

    Dota 2... is probably more of a small side project really, in terms of scope? That's what it looks like to me. The problem then is that it also seems like Valve is trying super hard to make it popular and competitive and whatnot which I frankly can't see happening BECAUSE they copy Dota so closely. If they added more kinds of maps or game modes, sure, then it could be a big project, but then you may as well change and improve the original gameplay to actually work out better... which is also not what fans want? Trying to 100% fulfill the wants and "needs" of hardcore Dota fans is as niche as you could ever get.

    In fact I can't believe Icefrog (or whoever the original mapper who made Dota into what it is was - I always preferred another AoS, Tides of Blood back in the WC3 days tbh) is that competent if he thinks the original Dota had no issues and everything has to be ported 1:1. It just... doesn't work well as gameplay concept, everything is so rough. I think a bunch of developers fell into this trap of thinking "hey many people like this there Dota mod, guess we'll make a full game like that" when in fact people just liked it because it was one of the best WC3 custom maps (then its popularity randomly exploded, I dunno why because again other good AoS maps existed). Point is that compared to full games it's not that great at all.

    The entire idea of just updating Dota is just not promising. Yes it works as a little side project and a way to play Dota in a modern client in a modern engine is great. However... it's not a good game beyond that really. I can't see "outsiders" getting super interested in Dota 2 suddenly when they did not like the clones that already exist, and you're not even going to get all the people already playing AoS games, some will stay in LoL or HoN I'm sure.

    But it doesn't seem like a small side project at all which makes me think they completely misjudged the scope/possible target audience.

    Well as Mangy says they might still sell a lot of copies and might still get a lot of players, I'm not going to pretend I know this in advance. It just seems unlikely. And even if they do... spending so much time and effort making a game like that is, frankly, actually kind of wasted potential, you know? Did they really need to spend all these resources on just updating an old map? I may not like Valve much anymore but Dota 2 is far, far below the level of a Portal or Left 4 Dead and... well I wanted to say "I still know Valve can make very good games" but maybe that's not even true anymore. That would explain a lot.

    LoL is... kinda newbie-friendly. The entire "genre" isn't friendly by default and Dota 2 as I said is copying Dota so closely it's definitely less newbie-friendly than LoL. I suppose the mentoring feature could help but honestly that's just desperately trying to find a way to explain a far too complicated concept (and I doubt a lot of new players actually use the mentoring in TF2 either).
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
  16. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    Sorry for ranting for so long in the last post, just wanted to add another not-as-related thing that's also going to be long but you can skip this:

    I actually played WC3 custom maps a lot back then, so I saw a lot of progress and I was a WC3 mapper myself. One of my maps, Tech Wars, got featured in Blizzard's Map Vault and one of the first SC2 maps was in fact Nexus Wars which may be more known and is a pretty close copy of my old map.

    The thing is that I saw a lot of Tower Defense maps too. They were easy to make and as mapper you could just concentrate on cool towers, script special abilities they could have and whatnot.

    There were also a bunch of AoS maps. Harder to make but rather popular - the first Aeon of Strife was actually an SC1 map but the concept worked a lot better in WC3 when leveling up heroes and items were an inherent part of the game already. You just got your two bases, some towers, creeps walk to the other side. There were literally around 50 AoS maps I played and I liked Tides of Blood the best... for some reason, I'd have to see it again to remember why. Dota kinda existed too, kinda was played too but it wasn't as fancy as other maps especially since it was released at the start of TFT (WC3's expansion) afaik so it didn't have any super fancy scripting yet. In fact (I think it's called) Between X Worlds was an AoS map in RoC (i.e. WC3 without expansion) that actually hacked the map and had more advanced scripts than Dota then, before Dota existed.

    The point of all this is... I have no idea how Dota got so popular. It honestly seems random to me. It's like people picked one of the AoS maps, didn't play the rest and... that's it really.

    EDIT: In fact, I checked... the old Map Vault has been archived here: http://classic.battle.net/mod/mapvault.shtml
    You'll see lots of TDs, Tech Wars at the bottom of the first page, and then at the bottom of the fifth page Dota Allstars, Eve of the Apocalypse (which is and I quote "an exceptional Aeon of Strife-style map with distinctive gameplay and custom graphical effects") and a bit over that Tides of Blood (another AoS).


    Tower Defense games at least make sense to me. The concept is far more open and variable, hell you even see FPS/TD games now (e.g. Sanctum). But yes that mostly came from Starcraft 1 and later WC3 mapping too. Some of the more popular WC3 maps aren't even games at all yet like (I think it's called) Line Tower Defense where you either spend gold on sending creeps to the player to the right of you or build towers to defend yourself from the ones coming from your left... Wintermaul TD (one of the first big WC3 TDs as well back in RoC) where 7-8 players are on the same map and everyone loses lives together if the creeps get through to the end where you could co-op and build a maze together with other guys or do your own thing (and then blame the guy before you for being shit when you let stuff through lol), all sorts of fancy things. Spellcraft, Card Shuffle... maybe I shouldn't mention these because they'd make for kickass full games too... Enfo's Team Survival hasn't even been ported to SC2 (yet) and also would be a great variant for a Dota-like game (you can reuse most of the heroes and stuff but the gameplay is totally different). Footman Frenzy, Battleships (at least Battleships was remade as SC2 map and is called Star Battle.)

    Years later there would be Desktop Tower Defense, some obscure flash game that copied another WC3 map. Suddenly it got super popular and successful simply because a lot of people never knew the extent of how fancy WC3 custom maps really were... because they never played or heard of WC3.

    But randomly Dota exploded and I have no clue why. The people still didn't know WC3, they just wanted to play Dota and had to get this weird real-time strategy game client thing with it. It wasn't even the best AoS map then, it got lots of criticism from mappers and players but really nothing was ever improved? And now people love it and can't imagine anything else. A lot of the "intended" gameplay mechanics were just because WC3 was an actual game and these things couldn't be changed or they couldn't be arsed to script them properly. It's so surreal to me man.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
  17. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    This really isn't a valid arguement. As far as i can see the only people who'll play Dota are the fanboys. LoL and HoN have been around the block and they work and have communities. Which begs the question that's already been asked in this thread, why even bother with Dota2.

    Some dota fanboy at Valve probably had an idea to port it or some such, and Valve's increasing interest in micro transactions and in-game stores sparked a marketing/business model. This is the only thing i can think of that legitimises making Dota2.

    Which ironically, in terms of Valve's usual community support, isn't really paying attention to their community at all, but exploiting them for money.
     
  18. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Me, and a heck of a lot of others in the HoN community, as well as my friends, are hoping that DoTA 2 will have some care put into it like other valve games have. (Although, tf2...). The fact is, DoTA needs a refresh, something that DoTA 2 can provide where as HoN and LoL cannot due to legal reasons.
     
  19. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Due to legal reasons? Valve weren't even the original developers of Dota. There was a titan standoff between Blizz' and Valve but that was about it. Blizz had no rights over it so naturally Valve won.

    Besides, the only thing being contested was the name and certainly none of the mechanics have been patented, unless Valve did only recently like they did with the name Dota; but that's still way after LoL and HoN started.
     
  20. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    Oh shit trotim you made tech wars?

    That shit was so beast man i loved it holy fuck
     
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