Croissant

CP croissant final

waxpax

L5: Dapper Member
Feb 25, 2011
238
151
Thanks i'll be fixing all of those, do you happen to have a demo of the match?

We actually didn't pug your map last night, just looked at it since I wanted to see what people thought about your change to second.

The one thing I remember being said was: "so, he went from not being able to defend second to not being able to attack it." Some one else thought you should put some stairs or a ramp on the second point so you don't have to back track from 2 to attack last since it's likely that the cones that you could jump off to get over that ledge on the back of 2 would be knocked away during the fight for 2.
 

waxpax

L5: Dapper Member
Feb 25, 2011
238
151
I realize that speculation isn't as good as actually testing a map, but that that comment was a major theme as to why we didn't try to pug your map again. People didn't think it would be that fun to play again since two still doesn't seem like viable a point. Before it was a battle for mid and last since you couldn't defend two, now everyone thought it would be a battle for mid and two since you they felt you couldn't defend two. I'll try and get a pug going on the map another time, but I don't know if I'll really have that much success, most of the chatter in mumble was people that just didn't like the way the map looked.
 

Arnold

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 18, 2008
283
242
It's weird to just not play a map because you think it looks weird, certainly it's different but that's the whole point. People complained a lot about the water route to gullywash last saying it's too hard to defend that way, in the end it turned out to be the opposite. There are so many variables you can't account for like location of medpacks, respawntimes, ability to hold at certain chokes or not, map lay-out.

I rather not force you to play it tbh, if you don't want to play it that's fine but it's really odd that you would only playtest maps you think play well. Since what would be the point to playtest a map that is already plays well?

Forcing people to play a map they don't like the look of will just result in emotional bias and in not taking the match seriously, i've seen plenty of it in the american scene, don't know why they are so reluctant to try out different looking maps. The european scene is much more accepting in that aspect.
 
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waxpax

L5: Dapper Member
Feb 25, 2011
238
151
Arnold, it wasn't that your map looked "weird," if anything the geometry of it is a major reason why I'm interested in it because I think it would produce new and unique, if not interesting, gameplay.

Last week, we played an early version of your map, it really didn't play that well and when I was talking about what to play this week, I brought up Croissant and was told something like: "it really didn't play that well last time, though." At which point I told them we should at least look at it since it seemed to me that a lot of the changes you made in a11 addressed concerns that we brought up in the pug we'd played last week.

So, I got everyone in the pug to look at your map, and most still thought the map had problems that would prevent it from playing well, most comments were about second, as I stated earlier. I wasn't really in the mood to try and leverage a play test out of it by abusing what little power I have over the group and offered to move to another map, which we subsequently did.

I've gotten people to play every map I've brought before the pug group on pug nights except for two (croissant and millstone) and both of those maps I probably could've gotten played if I had been more insistent on playing them, but I'm usually not in a mood to want to try to persuade 12+ people to try a map that they think is "just a pub map" or if they say something like "second isn't going to work" or whatever reason they present for not wanting to play a map; and, sometimes, I just bend to public opinion and switch the map.

We don't always play a map more than once, but I at least look at the changes made and I try to play any map that someone requests we test that I think would have any chance of working in 6s, whether it's push, Gpit style A/D, linear 2 point A/D, or KOTH, (I'm still trying to figure out a way to get people to test multi-stage linear A/D maps, idk how much luck I'll have with that, though). Some maps, the only reason I play them is because the mapper has requested it and has taken the time to show up in mumble and in server to watch and receive criticism. Some mapper's can't do that because of time differences, but, if you contact me and are willing to take the time to get real-time feedback on you map, I'll do whatever I can to get it tested for you the night you show up. It's also a lot easier to get people to test a map they might be unsure of by saying "well, tonight we have Arnold's map and he's here to get feedback on it; so if you'd like to influence the direction of this map, tonight's your chance." I also think it cuts down on the number of inane comments that some people make about a map when they know the creator is in a virtual room with them (though it doesn't always stop all of them).
 

Wilson

Boomer by Sleep
aa
May 4, 2010
1,385
1,223
I am not sure if i read that post right, but you didn't even bother to see how it plays now, because your feedback wasn't taken? That is silly, i would probably be avoiding gameday every second week if i refused play map that did not take my feedback and this is not even some obvious issue like red only platform over cp or something else strange, it is just bit out of ordinary cp map.
 

Arnold

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 18, 2008
283
242
Honestly I'm not trying to force you to play it, It's just that you can't judge a map just by looking at it, i'm sorry it just doesn't work out. The only way to be sure is to playtest. It's not like I don't realise cp2 might be hard to take since it forces you to commit but I can't be sure unless it's played properly and even if it is hard to take i need to know to what extent to make adjustments accordingly.

I can't account for all the things going on in a single match and I haven't come across somebody that can. So it's just wrong to base judgements by running around it once.

I have listened to the feedback however, it's just that this time they think cp2 is impossible to take instead of the previous version where it was deemed impossible to defend.

Really small changes can make a big difference but i can't just keep adjusting based on speculation, after all i think a map with a cp that forces you to commit in a certain way can bring an interesting dynamic.
 
Sep 1, 2009
573
323
I think I personally ha too much fun airblasting doom off the edge and building a sentry nest with rexy and failing at it :3
 

waxpax

L5: Dapper Member
Feb 25, 2011
238
151
I am not sure if i read that post right, but you didn't even bother to see how it plays now, because your feedback wasn't taken? That is silly, i would probably be avoiding gameday every second week if i refused play map that did not take my feedback and this is not even some obvious issue like red only platform over cp or something else strange, it is just bit out of ordinary cp map.

I think you misread me. I specifically said I was interested in looking at a11 of Croissant because some of our criticism of a6 (I think that was the version we played) that we made after our pug on the map last week was used to attempt to improve the map.

However, the reason we did not pug the map was because the majority of the 12+ people in the pug that were looking at the map felt the changes were too extreme. The initial criticism was that 2 was too hard to defend, people looking at the map this weekend said that 2 was now too hard to attack. You might not be able to tell something like that from just looking at a map, but, if a majority of people in a pug come to the conclusion that the map wouldn't be fun, or wouldn't work in 6s, or whatever, it's difficult to sway them into trying to play it and I'm not sure it's always beneficial to try and get them to play it.
 

honeymustard

L9: Fashionable Member
Oct 26, 2009
698
573
Would like to see more barriers (same as upward's first area) after recent tests
also I was thinking it would look a lot nicer with the same theme as arena ravine or plr hightower, but up to you of course
 

Arnold

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 18, 2008
283
242
little update with screenshots

a14b

QMAiv.jpg

xGc9G.jpg

XqmvD.jpg

TFkbN.jpg

JfQHv.jpg

ZaaSg.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/M4bnd.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LlYk3.jpg
 

Seba

DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD
aa
Jun 9, 2009
2,364
2,728
I think it's a bit odd to have windows going from outside to outside. Meh.
WAFD4.png
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
I like most of the map but I really don't like second

If you are blu and you want to attack it, you follow the blue path
Once capped, you follow the purple
HKAoE.jpg


This is extremely annoying. It breaks linearity, messes with pushes, and makes defenders have an easy time making a push for 2nd. Defenders being able to take 2nd back is great, but not here, because to stop them you have to stand on the point and then do a 180 degree turn again, which is FUCKING ANNOYING

The five or so times I played on this map if we didn't cap last immediately after second teams would just take turns standing on the defenders' second point without anything happening for 20 minutes

but that's just like my opinion man
 

Arnold

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 18, 2008
283
242
I think it's a bit odd to have windows going from outside to outside. Meh.
WAFD4.png

Yeh I agree, will most likely change that.

Yyler, you don't really have to do a 180 turn since you will be facing the defenders side while capping, all you really need to do is drop down instead of just walking forward. Having both teams take turns standing on second doesn't sound like a bad thing. Also i've only played the map 3 times with only 2 times having cp2 positioned like that. Is croissant being played on occassions that i'm not aware of?

Anyway thanks for the feedback but i want to keep it like that for as long as possible, so I might just think of something else to make it less annoying i'll look into it.

If in the end it turns out to be a huge dealbreaker i'll change it but honestly i think it's interesting.
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
Arnold, the point is you need to do a loop which sucks. You can't even jump back up to go to last unless you're a jump class and soldiers/demos dont want to hurt themselves to go 96 units or whatever it is

I just think... you know, several people have complained during tests, it's talked about in chat whenever you update, and waxpax's players refused to do it. Sometimes people know when something doesn't work, regardless of if they can qualify the statement, and I think that's what happened with those testers. That's all.
 

Arnold

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 18, 2008
283
242
hold on, the map hasn't been tested nearly enough for you to make that statement as if it were absolute fact.

Waxpax played the map once with the point being on the sloped bridge/bunker, while i appreciate their efforts cp2 changed and all they did was take a look, their complaint was cp2 being too hard to cap. And if they don't play it i don't really consider their opinion that valid.

Also 5cp's are generally geared towards the competitive community, having you reconsider and make an actualy tactical decision of wether or not you should get on point instead of just blindly getting on it "because that's how a cp works" is far more interesting.

That the cp is talked about in chat just proves that this is something which will define the map in the end, wether or not i will add crates that are jumpable or not remains to be seen.

Same went for bazillion's last dropdown, do you realise that, now the map has been played far more than the few public tests that happened in tf2maps it turns out not to be a problem at all?

I won't go into the same argument that went on in the bazillion topic though, because it's just my way of looking at problems and feedback. Please don't get me wrong I appreciate the feedback just don't be offended when i don't change things right away/never.
 

tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
5,102
4,621
I respect your decision to have kooky CPs and I know that TF2M isn't the end-all arbiter of good ideas and bad ideas, I just wanted to explain why I dislike it and probably why other people dislike it

Also doesn't feel like an important capture area imo

I don't really think it's on the same level of "different" as the drop-down was or the water route on gullywash was, that's all
 

honeymustard

L9: Fashionable Member
Oct 26, 2009
698
573
Honestly the second point is my favourite part of the map, it presents a very unique dynamic that's not present in any other 5cp map. The reasons yyler listed are reasons I enjoy it.