CP cp_millstone - 3CP attack/defence map b6

Made by ics

  1. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    This is the map that i have been working for during last 2 months + enhancing it 2-3 weeks on top of that. I find this map being very good lesson into world of TF2 mapping as i work on new projects in the future.

    I created download site for the map with images and to distribute the map so you might want to check this out too as it has full changelog and screenies. (Though those screenshots are here now too).

    So, comments appreciated and suggestions. I'll return here and read them time to time as i work towards the end. Thanks.


    Releases and dates:

    b1: 23rd of Dec 2010
    b2: 25th of Dec 2010
    b3: 30th of Dec 2010
    b4: 4th of Jan 2011
    b5: 9th of Jan 2011
    b6: 9th of Jan 2011

    Next: No plans made yet
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  2. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    looks damn good for 2 months of work, as far as detailing.
    the A point looks pretty cool. B is ehh. C pics pl0x.
     
  3. Seba

    aa Seba DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD

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    I don't quite understand the purpose of the danger sign in your second screenshot; is there a deathpit beyond those rocks? Do rabid wolves attack you? Does a giant eagle swoop in and eat the player? It just makes little sense, that's all.

    The fourth screenshot has some very odd lighting. The inside of the shack (which is inside, so why does it need a roof?) has warm lighting, while the rest is a very cold blue and silver. Find a replacement for that shack, because it stands out like a sore thumb.

    On the last screenshot, that health looks annoying as hell. Pickups shouldn't be in hard-to-reach places, but they also shouldn't be in the center of attention.
     
  4. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Third screenshot: I would caution against the use of the Sawmill planks in a Dustbowl-themed map.
     
  5. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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  6. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Thanks for all the feedback so far.

    You have to give me some space here since i'm new but no way new knowing how players think and move in the maps. Granted, i made some mistakes in releasing the b1 too early but it was necessary thing to do so i really know what is wrong in it and what is not. I've done 2 playthroughs now with 24 and 30 slot servers and gotten a great feedback from the players who play the map. I plan to release b2 soon, within couple of days, perhaps even today and give it more extensive playthrough on my servers and ask the players more and watch how they run in it and play.

    It is important to think how player sees things. If he encounters invisible wall, that's always a no no but sometimes it is necessary to "seal" the area where player is able to move. The signs of danger mark that area. They immediately know that the area is off limits. Even Valve uses the same sign on their maps at non-accessible areas (in goldrush) which is why i put it there. So far i didn't notice anyone trying to go there.

    As for the screenies, some of the things i put in may look odd into some of the eyes around here on forums but that's only because you are mappers or similiar and could made something different than i did if it would be your creation. This usually leads to pointless bickering that leads to nowhere and i'm not saying this is it. I do appreciate your input and i take it into count while changing the map and so far it has been great. Clan players said that there are too many ammo/health around, they were correct and i fixed that thing already. The healthkit up there was an eyecatcher - if you are low on health, you might want to go up there and grab it before going forward or if you are defending, you might be needing it as it is closer than other packs.

    A regular player never notices most of the differences and oddities that you see. Whether the wooden bridge is used in sawmill or not, it fits into this theme too. Re-using props is not a crime if it fit's the scene. The shack inside the hall is somewhat connecting building between the BLU distillery area and RED (shed) which is the actual storage area, or that way saw it and it kind of brought the 2 buildings seamlessly together. Yes, the light is very warm, perhaps too warm so i made it already a bit more yellow instead of red but the building is red so the light should be one too and the blu area is industrial so it cannot be red. This is the way i see it.

    I could talk a lot more about how i think and do but it would be boring. I'll say this though. So far i have 23 snapshots from the past 2 months of hammer .vmf files. So in every couple of days when i built this, i took a snap and at some point, i'll propably write a paper and show off the vmf's at that time so the interested people can actually see how things developed to the point where they are now and later on.

    I'll update the screenies when i release b2. It still requires a bit more work.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  7. Moose

    Moose L6: Sharp Member

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    I don't think any of us need a lecture on playerclips or prop placement, really.

    You said you've only playtested this twice? Every great map I know of has been tested at least once after every major iteration, and gravelpit style maps are incredibly hard to balance.

    Your layout, judging from the screenshots, looks too flat. Every fighting area I can see (apart from the occasional roof or disp. ramp) has no more than one level of height.
    Also, a lot of the map seems to be made up of narrow corridors and pathways, as opposed to open spaces where you're free to move in any direction. This all probably leads to a rather mindless map.

    My advice would just be to add heights, and elaborate on those straight 2-way boring corridors. Make them more than just rectangles: add stairs, ramps, make them wider in places, do whatever it takes to make the gameplay around those corridors more interesting.

    Also, I think your detailing is fantastic, but make sure you can explain everything you're putting down. If you can't come up with a reason for a prop or building to exist in your map, it probably shouldn't be there at all.
     
  8. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    I wasn't trying to lecture, i was trying to explain that everyone has different point of view how they look maps. Some judge by mappers view. Some competitive view. Some as public having fun only players view. There are also the people who look only screenshots and some that actually bother to look the map itself ingame.

    I am self learned so i never follow certain pattern in mapping. Some use dev textures and design geometry first. Release many alpha versions, release many beta versions and then even many release candicates. I basically do the layout piece by piece adding things in it that fit to the scene. This is why i do a complete release first and not do 10 versions of playtest before getting it out. If i get something wrong, it's my loss and if it's fixable, i'll fix it but i don't see a major need of layout change for this one. There are some spots that needs tuning and some things that i did not consider while creating this but for first try, i'm quite happy. It lacks some of the things you mentioned but it plays ok despite of those things - after the changes on b2.

    You are also correct about balancing, that is an issue like it is in the map that everyone seems to compare this with - Gravelpit, even myself. That however is not balanced too much, like you must know since you are a competitive player. The teams never bother to defend A because B is much harder to cap and easier to defend. A is defendable but no one bothers to try it out, not even on public servers which makes the map somewhat boring. I kind of failed and made A too easy to cap, which is why i am now making couple of changes. B turned out to be harder to cap than A so i will do changes for it too. Also areas in between those caps get changes.

    With all the changes in b2, i think it will be usable atleast on public servers where i aimed this in the first place. I did not forget the competitive side either and i keep that in mind too. Thanks again for the input.
     
  9. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Updated the map and released b2 from it after extensive testing. New things occured during the test on b2 that need improving and adjusting and changing but those changes will be added into the B3 version. These changes include making some of the routes more simple and making it easier for red to cap point C by introducing new route and "sniper deck". Buildings are there, just need to make them have the route inside.

    It seems that there are things that i did not expected to surface so i will listen players more and make necessary changes depending on the feedback, while still keeping my own mind how it should play out. Overall, after couple of more releases, it will be a decent map and i can start a new project.
     
  10. Manta_firefly

    Manta_firefly L1: Registered

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    Some additional feedback from the playtest last night:

    Blu has rather a long walk to A and B from their spawn, and I feel that their spawn time should be made slightly shorter to compensate. Also, could you provide an overhead screenshot of the map (Basically showing the layout) as that would really help us to understand the flow of the map.
     
  11. Faux Rhinoceros

    aa Faux Rhinoceros Also known as Dr. Element

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    B should be more visible. I managed to run pass it as scout without noticing it :p
     
  12. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    I have a rough overview on the of the map as development shots while i built this. This is from November 21st (over a month ago) but it clearly shows the layout. On the overview image, B however, is moved a bit "down" from where i put that B on the map. http://ics-base.net/crap/cp_nimeton3.jpg and there is also one with more stuff in it here sideways http://ics-base.net/crap/cp_nimeton4.jpg

    More devshots for the people who are interested:
    http://ics-base.net/crap/cp_nimeton.jpg
    http://ics-base.net/crap/cp_nimeton2.jpg


    You might spot that the cap points and their surroundings have rapidly developed since the shots have been taken :)

    But yes, seems that you guys have been playing it but so have i since then and seen how players on my servers walk around on it. The areas between A and B will be more clear on next version and the route to C is becoming more apparent from BLU base to the C. Also there will be a new route to access C from some of the houses that surround it, perhaps even another when approached from the left side of C (as seen from BLU base). I noticed that it needs a sniper spot that could help out a bit to take on C. However on most playthroughs i've seen, it's fallen 60% of the time so i don't know if i should change it at all so it won't become too easy to cap. A point will also receive a route from that house up of it. It will have a ramp where you can just jump down to A.

    After you see these changes, i think it will be pretty close to what it will be as ready as it can ever be. For B4, if there is need to do more changes after B3, i consider doing another entrance out of the base for B and perhaps for A. Some people say that they cannot get out of the base but isn't that the reason why medics are for.

    Thanks for the input, i also read the HH's (Hampshire Heavies) forum comments and took those into consideration. Many thanks for them about testing the B2 out!
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  13. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Just released b3 version of the map. I updated 1st post with new screenshots and full list of changes into b3 can be seen at http://ics-base.net/tf2/changelog.txt

    After the changes in it, i think it is now much more clear and better. See for yourself. However, it still needs additional playtesting after the changes so i think i'll keep it out couple of weeks and then release b4 with needed changes. There are some lightning bugs left and some visual stuff too.
     
  14. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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  15. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    I don't know what happen to all feedback we gave you trough feedback system while we tested the map with Gailee, but it seems it never made it way to you.

    The map is pretty bad (Yeah, i know it sounds bit harsh) and it needs a lot of work. The layout is extremly maze like, we played full 45 minutes and even after last round we had no idea where we were going, also, point c is really hidden, first two rounds both teams had trouble to find, even after those rounds there was some trouble with it.

    Point B is extremly cramped and it needs to be more open, otherwise it was pretty good, you should put most work on A and C. A was horrible, everyone on the point is standing on a deathtrap, they were middle of deathpit with red having all height difference, pyros kept airblasting people into pit and demomen and soldiers killed the rest, A is like Steel E but not fun to play on. C is easily camped with sentries, there is only two ways in, control point is in corner of the room and the room is high above ground, it needs to be on ground, or needs more ways in.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  16. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    I strongly disagree about it being bad.

    I saw the feeback at http://feedback.tf2maps.net/map/cp_millstone_b3/ and i even replied there too. I don't see the issues as bad as you do or others you played with. Just because it's something people haven't used to, it doesn't mean it's bad. Over time, it will be much more fun and have more variety than the boring maps which layout you know inside out immediately. It is not that complex.

    I was going to say something longer but due to previous feedback for lecturing, i'm gonna just say that A is working as i intended. B is what it is so far. Haven't had need to change it yet and C i'm watching how much it falls for BLU on every playthrough of the map on our servers. So far it's 60% for BLU so i'm not sure if i should make it more easier to attack. Like in any map, you can do 10 sentries to defend it and have 6 medics to attack at it with ubered friend but that's not the point. Point is, does it fall or not with team of multiple classes.
     
  17. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    If people have after 45 minutes problems with layout i wouldn't say it is good layout. A layout you know inside out immediatley also works best, just look at badwater or badlands, the layout is simple, easy to learn but is still is bloody fun and has no sings of begin boring yet. You also have to think first impression, if people can't figure map out after 45 minutes i don't think they are interested to play map again, you seem to be ingoring the major issues and calling them features. (That reminds me of SWATY a lot, but i doubt you are SWATY)


    Maybe it is, but it seems way you intended A work is unfun for players, while point itself is quite interesting from gameplay perspective it is terrible from fun factor perspective and gameflow perspective, and if your map looks good and has interesting features but is unfun to play on, then map needs work, this isn't L4D, players don't care how cool it looks or how perfect ambiance is, they care about fun.

    You honestly have no idea how sick i am hearing 10 engineers make any map impossible to attack or use ubers. If certain classes can make map impossible to win if they are rushed, it is map fault, not the games fault, i seen plenty of all engineer or all demoman defences on badwater and i seen enemy team win still.
     
  18. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Hey there, I love how the map looks, but you can't judge a map by its detailing.

    I have not yet played the map with people, I have ran through it. I didn't get lost, BUT, as a more "experienced" tf2 player, I can easily EASILY see where people can get lost. You have arrows that point to points, yes, but you don't have clear labels to which one is which point. in the heat of the battle, people need to be to quickly look and see where the next point is.

    Also, as a side note, it feels as if you have TOO many sideroutes, which adds to the confusion.

    You may have A working how you want it, but if your making a map for yourself, then whats the fun in that? Red easily has the height advantage and the easier way to reach that point. That makes capping A, neigh impossible.

    There are a few detailing things that I'll point out later, but, fix the things from the feed first. (No, actually fix it). Toss it up for a gameday, get feedback from that, fix that, THEN when people are less confused, and more comfortable with the map, then work on detailing.

    If you really want to release this map in its current state as a final map, go ahead, but I personally and honestly, wouldn't expect it to go official, if that was your intention with the map.
     
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  19. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    After 45mins, if you have issues with layout, either you're not bothered to learn it out or you simply just run around without even trying. I would understand the confusion if this would be _b2 but even with _b3, that's pretty self explanatory when looked at the signs and using common sense even without knowing the map in advance. I know CS players complain if there are more routes than 2 or more turns than 3 in a map to reach bombsite but i don't know what is problem as people seem to be finding their way fine on our servers. Some get lost at first, yeah but they get around it and don't get lost again.

    Comparing this to 5CP or PL map that has larger area in the end is also a bad idea. Better would be comparison to Gravelpit. I find it boring as A falls all the time and B can be cranked up with sentries and then C goes fast again in Gravelpit. I didn't want to do another map like that. I wanted variety and this one has it. It is however only one of the reasons i made this. Most of all, this was for practice. I have no "general way" in which i do things like others seem to do (dev textures->real->whatever->detailing->fps fixes-> whatever).

    A can be also fun for players because they can especially use pyro to push people off or demoman to lay some bombs from above to A when BLU tries to cap. Also BLU can easily take right from B door and head for A through the upper house, thus securing it so no one comes from above to the cap (and kill the possible attackers up there. It's not like you have to go through A setup door to reach A all the time. I left this as a tactical point. I am saddened to find out that (not meaning anyone here but generally) a player is stupid. Unless something is basically laid in front of the player, sometimes he can't find it at all.

    A falls to BLU very easily, with little effort. I honestly don't see any problem with it. You also say the map needs work but you do not specify any suggestions what to do? What kind of feedback is this? What would YOU do? You have to also understand that some things are what they are and no matter what you say change that fact, unless there is something very wrong. So far this layout plays out on my tests and on our servers, it just works. It's not perfect map but it's my first TF2 map and so far i'm happy with it. I am aware that some of the "side routes" may be confusing at first though. I'll see if i can make it a bit yet more simple so b5 will be done. In the mean time, more actual ideas how would YOU improve this, would be welcome. I sort of have the blindness of not seeing some things while they are right in front of me. Everyone who has made a map knows the feeling and what i mean.

    I don't know whats you problem with engineers but i didnt say having 10 engineers in this is impossible defence. I've seen 7 so far with their sentries and still the BLU won due to couple of ubers and rest of the team going to the point while some of the RED waited to spawn and rest were who knows where, not at where they were supposed to be. This isn't impossible to win or impossible to defend.

    I have idea for making attacking for BLU easier (at C) but so far i haven't had need to implement it, as C falls to BLU most of the time.
     
  20. Konata

    Konata L2: Junior Member

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