CP cp_millstone - 3CP attack/defence map b6

[samn]

There's a place with a sign saying 'B' with an arrow pointing down through a hole. When a player drops down, they are in a tunnel between B and C. Because of the way they drop into it, the natural inclination is to go towards C. I made that mistake one or two times when playing this map.

There's also a roof near the spawn area on C that looks like you should be able to jump onto it, but you can't. you should put some higher fences around that area.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

After 45mins, if you have issues with layout, either you're not bothered to learn it out or you simply just run around without even trying. I would understand the confusion if this would be _b2 but even with _b3, that's pretty self explanatory when looked at the signs and using common sense even without knowing the map in advance. I know CS players complain if there are more routes than 2 or more turns than 3 in a map to reach bombsite but i don't know what is problem as people seem to be finding their way fine on our servers. Some get lost at first, yeah but they get around it and don't get lost again.

A can be also fun for players because they can especially use pyro to push people off or demoman to lay some bombs from above to A when BLU tries to cap. Also BLU can easily take right from B door and head for A through the upper house, thus securing it so no one comes from above to the cap (and kill the possible attackers up there. It's not like you have to go through A setup door to reach A all the time. I left this as a tactical point. I am saddened to find out that (not meaning anyone here but generally) a player is stupid. Unless something is basically laid in front of the player, sometimes he can't find it at all.

This isn't CS, this is tf2. (and yes, sparta joke imminent).

Also, A can be fun... for pyro's, engies, demo and soldiers. What about Career snipers? Scouts? Medics? For one, I'm a career sniper, and I don't think A is solid at all balance wise. Defiently should rethink it. HARD rethink.

And the players here aren't stupid. I'd like to clear that up. You said it, this is your first map, you are learning alot, you want to learn more. Then listen to those who have been doing this for a longer time, you will learn more in the end.

I'd like it to be known. I really do like where this map is going, honestly I do. I like the detail (minus a few pet peeves of mine). But, make this map fun for ALL, you really need to listen to the feed and change things up around the map.

 

[Wilson]

After 45mins, if you have issues with layout, either you're not bothered to learn it out or you simply just run around without even trying. I would understand the confusion if this would be _b2 but even with _b3, that's pretty self explanatory when looked at the signs and using common sense even without knowing the map in advance. I know CS players complain if there are more routes than 2 or more turns than 3 in a map to reach bombsite but i don't know what is problem as people seem to be finding their way fine on our servers. Some get lost at first, yeah but they get around it and don't get lost again.

I think you are ingoring a one big fact here, TF2 is quite fast paced fps with a lot of going on, there is reason why layouts need to be simple, it is simply because with all fighting going on, there is not time to find and read all sings or try learn every single small route on map, 2 major and one minor rule is best way to approach any a/d cp map, but in this case your map seems to be a lot of minor and major routes, CS players have nothing to do with this anyway, CSS works a lot differently than TF2 A/D CP, CP maps need to have good flow and clear layout, otherwise for most of the players, the experience is going to suck.

Comparing this to 5CP or PL map that has larger area in the end is also a bad idea. Better would be comparison to Gravelpit. I find it boring as A falls all the time and B can be cranked up with sentries and then C goes fast again in Gravelpit. I didn't want to do another map like that. I wanted variety and this one has it. It is however only one of the reasons i made this. Most of all, this was for practice. I have no "general way" in which i do things like others seem to do (dev textures->real->whatever->detailing->fps fixes-> whatever).

How gravel pit plays is not going to change fact that the map needs a lot of work, A is terrible, B is ok and C is big meh.

A can be also fun for players because they can especially use pyro to push people off or demoman to lay some bombs from above to A when BLU tries to cap. Also BLU can easily take right from B door and head for A through the upper house, thus securing it so no one comes from above to the cap (and kill the possible attackers up there. It's not like you have to go through A setup door to reach A all the time. I left this as a tactical point. I am saddened to find out that (not meaning anyone here but generally) a player is stupid. Unless something is basically laid in front of the player, sometimes he can't find it at all.

So you want it to be fun for red but not for blu? There is two teams and to make map enjoyable it is important to look that both teams are having fun, i wouldn't want to play map where Red has all the fun (Redfort ) and other team has to suffer because of bad level desing. Also, why there is route from B route to A route, this once again is reason why layout is so confusing on this map, you are supposed to have clear routes, A route takes to A and B route takes to B, and from both points there is way to C where you can get to other point, instead this map seem to have layout where A routes takes A B and C and B takes to A and B and all this is done with multiple levels in buildings and a lot of corridors.
Also, calling players stupid because your layout is confusing is not the best choice.

A falls to BLU very easily, with little effort. I honestly don't see any problem with it. You also say the map needs work but you do not specify any suggestions what to do? What kind of feedback is this? What would YOU do? You have to also understand that some things are what they are and no matter what you say change that fact, unless there is something very wrong. So far this layout plays out on my tests and on our servers, it just works. It's not perfect map but it's my first TF2 map and so far i'm happy with it. I am aware that some of the "side routes" may be confusing at first though. I'll see if i can make it a bit yet more simple so b5 will be done. In the mean time, more actual ideas how would YOU improve this, would be welcome. I sort of have the blindness of not seeing some things while they are right in front of me. Everyone who has made a map knows the feeling and what i mean.

I am confused here, we already offer you great amount of feedback and what to do to make things better and all we got is some massive post explaining it is us not the map and all feedback has gone ingored, you always seem to pull off a "It is not a glitch or mapping fail, it is a feature!" when someone mentions something negative about your map, if you posted the map here and don't want feedback or ingore all of it, why did you even post it then, this is not place to show off your map, this is place for feedback.

I don't know whats you problem with engineers but i didnt say having 10 engineers in this is impossible defence. I've seen 7 so far with their sentries and still the BLU won due to couple of ubers and rest of the team going to the point while some of the RED waited to spawn and rest were who knows where, not at where they were supposed to be. This isn't impossible to win or impossible to defend.

If you need to use uber every time to get rid of engineers, then there is problem on your map, it is like you need a medic to win a match on this, i wouldn't enjoy badlands where only scouts can cap the points.

TL-DR: Stop thinking that what ever YOU do to the map is right, you need to listen to the other people, heck, i wonder how crappy my a/d cp map stage 1 would be if i think every decision i made was right.

EDIT: Holy shit, did i just write all this?

 

[ics]

ಠ_ಠ

This kind of feedback, i do not need. If you cannot contribute, do not post at all.

There's a place with a sign saying 'B' with an arrow pointing down through a hole. When a player drops down, they are in a tunnel between B and C. Because of the way they drop into it, the natural inclination is to go towards C. I made that mistake one or two times when playing this map.

There's also a roof near the spawn area on C that looks like you should be able to jump onto it, but you can't. you should put some higher fences around that area.

I already put there a sign B -> so player should be able to see it when he turns around after drop. However, now that i think about it, I'll see i i can do something else for it.

As for the fence, i'm not sure if higher fence would suit into that spot if it's the one as i think it is. I'll think about it too.

This isn't CS, this is tf2. (and yes, sparta joke imminent).

Also, A can be fun... for pyro's, engies, demo and soldiers. What about Career snipers? Scouts? Medics? For one, I'm a career sniper, and I don't think A is solid at all balance wise. Defiently should rethink it. HARD rethink.

And the players here aren't stupid. I'd like to clear that up. You said it, this is your first map, you are learning alot, you want to learn more. Then listen to those who have been doing this for a longer time, you will learn more in the end.

I'd like it to be known. I really do like where this map is going, honestly I do. I like the detail (minus a few pet peeves of mine). But, make this map fun for ALL, you really need to listen to the feed and change things up around the map.

Medic is a class that can go anywhere, so is scout and there is plenty of room for him to do stuff on A. Snipers, i thought the upper house, the mining tunnel or the little house at rear A would be sufficient spots, or just the doorway where the traintrack leads. I'll see if i can do something else too but it might affect negatively for the fps level (or not). Infact the "complexity" is partly reason for it. I wanted to keep certain level of framerate and couldn't figure out better way to maintain it. I've had couple of new ideas for simplifying after reading the lines here and elsewhere while keeping the framerate nice so i'll experiment on those while doing changes.

Like i said, i didn't mean anyone here was stupid but i have been expecting more detailed comments what is wrong as this seems to be place where tf2 mappers gather. All i've seen so far is couple of people giving out something in the general way and bunch of itty bitty things that are wrong but not really in any detail or what they would do differently or what the map needs. I have open mind and if someone tells me what really is bothering them in this, i'll do necessary changes. Right now i'll plan to improve sniper spots on A per this feedback and simplify the map even more. If only comments would be more like this. Thanks.

 

[LeSwordfish]

Also, could you provide an overhead screenshot of the map (Basically showing the layout) as that would really help us to understand the flow of the map.

If people are asking this, your layout is too complex. Look at your favourite map. Get somebody who's never played it to start in the spawn. If they dont end up at the relevant CP just by walking in the first direction that comes into their head, the layout sucks.

EDIT:

I strongly disagree about it being bad.

You would, it's your map. Best to forget your own opinions in favour of other suggestions. It's like, your Mother think's you're cool, but that's because she made you. Other people don't have the massive bias that you have about your map- everyone thinks their A1 rocks.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I'm glad that I was able to help.

If your keeping your map layout the way it is because of fps, you should look into better optimization techniques. This might help you out a bit and give you some wiggle room with your layout.

Also, fixing the sniper spots on A mightnot help it overall. What will help, but keep your idea, is makeing the cap platform (not the cap zone) a bit larger, so there is the chance to be airblasted over it. that would cut down on the pyro-dominance, YET, keep the ability/chance to fall.

Is that good?

EDIT: Swordfish, I like that analogy

 

[ics]

I think you are ingoring a one big fact here, TF2 is quite fast paced fps with a lot of going on, there is reason why layouts need to be simple, it is simply because with all fighting going on, there is not time to find and read all sings or try learn every single small route on map, 2 major and one minor rule is best way to approach any a/d cp map, but in this case your map seems to be a lot of minor and major routes, CS players have nothing to do with this anyway, CSS works a lot differently than TF2 A/D CP, CP maps need to have good flow and clear layout, otherwise for most of the players, the experience is going to suck.

I just tried to say that i've always kept TF2 players smarter than CS players which is why i assumed that if maps like Steel work, why wouldn't this one.

How gravel pit plays is not going to change fact that the map needs a lot of work, A is terrible, B is ok and C is big meh.

Yes you keep saying that but you don't say why A is terrible and why C is meh, whatever that means.

So you want it to be fun for red but not for blu? There is two teams and to make map enjoyable it is important to look that both teams are having fun, i wouldn't want to play map where Red has all the fun (Redfort ) and other team has to suffer because of bad level desing. Also, why there is route from B route to A route, this once again is reason why layout is so confusing on this map, you are supposed to have clear routes, A route takes to A and B route takes to B, and from both points there is way to C where you can get to other point, instead this map seem to have layout where A routes takes A B and C and B takes to A and B and all this is done with multiple levels in buildings and a lot of corridors.
Also, calling players stupid because your layout is confusing is not the best choice.

Generally RED as defending team have time to build their defences, lay out stickies and take a hold on strategic points so they have the benefit at start so i cannot make A much easier to take a hold on for them and as you said, capping seems to be hard for you and the players you played with.

So in your opinion, i should just shut down the way from B door to A completely? Granted, it would simplify the layout but would also make it harder for BLU to take over A. Then again, that doorway serves as faster route from A to B and otherways around so sealing it, means that there is only that tunnel connecting all CP's. I have to consider it and think a bit more. You just gave me another idea though. Thanks for that!

I am confused here, we already offer you great amount of feedback and what to do to make things better and all we got is some massive post explaining it is us not the map and all feedback has gone ingored, you always seem to pull off a "It is not a glitch or mapping fail, it is a feature!" when someone mentions something negative about your map, if you posted the map here and don't want feedback or ingore all of it, why did you even post it then, this is not place to show off your map, this is place for feedback.

You got me wrong, i am gratefull for the feedback but most of it is just "this is bad" and no reason why it is bad. This is why i feel a bit frustrated and i didn't mean i would not take all said here into count.

If you need to use uber every time to get rid of engineers, then there is problem on your map, it is like you need a medic to win a match on this, i wouldn't enjoy badlands where only scouts can cap the points.

TL-DR: Stop thinking that what ever YOU do to the map is right, you need to listen to the other people, heck, i wonder how crappy my a/d cp map stage 1 would be if i think every decision i made was right.

EDIT: Holy shit, did i just write all this?

Also, i didnt mean every time there has to be ubers. I was partly sarcastic. You don't need a medic but medic is a standard per team. Atleast one is always good thing to have. Anyways, i'm off for tonight. I'll make _b5 with changes based on feedback here and due to ideas i got. Takes propably some time, perhaps after weekend it's ready.


*** EDIT **

Looks like 2 more comments after i started typing. For you, yeah thats a good analogy. I'll keep it in mind as well the things Froz3n said. Thanks again.

 

[ardysqrrl]

Medic is a class that can go anywhere,

 

[Sergis]

After 45mins, if you have issues with layout, either you're not bothered to learn it out or you simply just run around without even trying. I would understand the confusion if this would be _b2 but even with _b3, that's pretty self explanatory when looked at the signs and using common sense even without knowing the map in advance. I know CS players complain if there are more routes than 2 or more turns than 3 in a map to reach bombsite but i don't know what is problem as people seem to be finding their way fine on our servers. Some get lost at first, yeah but they get around it and don't get lost again.

You should remember that players like to
- charge forward, sometimes even ignoring signs
- follow someone who has no idea where he's going
- ignore signs that are in their field of view, but outside tunnel vision
- declare that they are lost while standing under a sign
- declare that they are lost and only then take a look around
- run in circles around one area over and over again when trying to find the right way
- always look only forward, never up or around
- disable their map-learning brain portion and rely on the one that's responsible for going from sign to sign
- run off in exactly the direction you didn't want them to
- never stray off the one path they know if there are no obvious other paths around
- many other wonderful activities that made me rage helplessly when watching demos on my map


Also, at least on gamedays here, the map must be simple enough to be learned and played in 20-30 minutes. A demo of players just learning a complex map might be useful for learning proper sign placement, but it's quite useless imo for balancing feedback.

 

[ics]

You should remember that players like to
- charge forward, sometimes even ignoring signs
- follow someone who has no idea where he's going
- ignore signs that are in their field of view, but outside tunnel vision
- declare that they are lost while standing under a sign
- declare that they are lost and only then take a look around
- run in circles around one area over and over again when trying to find the right way
- always look only forward, never up or around
- disable their map-learning brain portion and rely on the one that's responsible for going from sign to sign
- run off in exactly the direction you didn't want them to
- never stray off the one path they know if there are no obvious other paths around
- many other wonderful activities that made me rage helplessly when watching demos on my map


Also, at least on gamedays here, the map must be simple enough to be learned and played in 20-30 minutes. A demo of players just learning a complex map might be useful for learning proper sign placement, but it's quite useless imo for balancing feedback.

These things that you mentioned are the reason why i call players stupid because they do exactly these things. I laughed while reading those because they are so true! Thanks, i'll keep that in mind while i work with the next version.

 

[Wilson]

Yes you keep saying that but you don't say why A is terrible and why C is meh, whatever that means.

Well, i did make a post about this in first place but let's try that again.

SIMPLIFY

The layout is confusing and can easily become pain in the ass, study maps like Furnace to see how 3cp a/d gravel pit style is done right. Right now there is way too many routes and side paths that lead to same place anyway, B route can take to A and A route can take to B and both can take you to C, this easily confuses players and makes fight spread everywhere because when setup ends, teams split up. Both A and B should have one major route into them and 2-3 exits onto point area, from both points there should be another one route with 2-3 exits to C and then one simple route from A to B.

POINT A

Detail:

Gameplay:

POINT B

Point B is fine really, the building it is in just needs to be bit larger so it isn't so spam friendly.

POINT C

Not sure what to change, but it needs to be less sentry friendly, maybe a some hole on a wall to let demomen and soldiers shoot at sentries. (Like that small window inside side room at artpass A)

GENERAL

Map suffers from slight overdetailing.

In this picture you can see there is plenty of different overlays and props, you don't need to stuff a lot of props or overlays in same place to make it look good, take run around 2fort or thundermountain and look how many bare walls there is, a bare wall looks usually better than walls with a lot of windows.

 

[Westerhound]

TF2 players are incredibly stupid. Countless times have I shouted that they're walking to the totally wrong direction in the mic and even typed to them, but they don't listen. They go by some retarded thing called their own brain. Add signs above some doors that don't have any, make more important routes and areas more appealing than the less important ones to tell that brain where to go. The map is confusing for the first time player right now, and even tho I learned it within 10 minutes while running around on my own, it would be harder if you had to focus on apparently important things like capturing points or the more fun stuff like randomly deathmatching the shit out of the other team.

General gameplay seemed quite good at the first glance. Height difference is awesome, don't know how much I like the huge death pit around A added with the long capture time though, but cant judge without playing properly. There also seemed to be a huge amount of flank routes, which might become a problem once players start to realize how the map works. I didn't investigate the capture times or respawn times too much so wont comment on that.

I took some screenshots of some things that need to be fixed in my opinion. Inserting signs is the purpose of the majority of them, but that's really the biggest problem with the map at the moment: getting people to understand how to play the map, cause if they don't know how to play it, they wont know how to enjoy it properly, and they will end up running around pointlessly deathmatching, and I assume this isn't your goal with this map since you didn't make a CTF >_>

TLDR: Needs more signs

Screenies (in links cause forum doesnt have spoilers to hide stuff in ):
Detailing problem
Minor detailing
Signs
Signs
Signs
Signs
Signs
Signs

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I have to say what wilson said about A is pretty simple, and easy to fix.

Couple of my points of interest:
On the spawn building for red, next to point C, you use spytech railings, those don't really fit for your theme. The antler horns over B, those need to be clipped, I can stand on them.
You have a curved wood building over B... personally I don't think curved wood fits, but thats a judgement call on you, and a minor pet peeve to me.

Westerhound covered a lot too.

Hope this all helps out.

 

[ics]

There's a lot of feedback coming in for once, which is good. Now finally i can get real opinions of what you all here think needs improving and what not. I'll reply briefly as i'm still considering what to do. First i would like to say that this morning i took a friend to the map (the latest _b4 version) who had not seen the map but plays TF2 time to time. I made him play BLU and told him first to go on A and B and then find way from A to B and B to A. Then from A to C and B to C and watched him going around. He had no issues finding his way as far as i saw and he said it was quite easy. Though i noticed that he didn't make use of 2 routes/places that much, even ran past the 1 route so i'll try to make it more clear on those parts. He also got lost once.

First, for Wilson: As i said i didn't want to do another Gravelpit / Furnace but make the map have more variety on routes / areas. Yes, propably many players dislike the map or hate it right now but it works ok despite that. Perhaps not on the first go but i'll be working on that. I'll consider changing the layout, but i'm not 100% sure if i should close the route between A and B completely and make it harder for BLU to come over at A and take it on. Atleast now they have change to get on RED backs from the left (as seen on blu base). I need to make tests on that and think it through more further. I will make use of the suggestions though.

As for detail things, I use a lot of overlays and other props because i also want for the map look good. Yes, Valve does things with plain wood walls but i just think they are missing something (of course depending on the spot). I guess i should cut down a bit. On the first image, the texts you put in, i may change the building on it to have access to the roof or something or the structure itself. The little shack there had incorrect lighting, it's a model so texture cannot be changed that easily but it's fixed in _b4 already. BLU sign is there to tell where to go for even the most not-so-knowing-people (so they don't end up going circle in the gray gravel building and end up back in base), as the wooden fence there just looked also missing something. Atleast this way players won't try to go that way through it either.

On the second image, i may make the point wider a bit as Froz3n suggested and perhaps add direct route from BLU to it so escaping incoming pyro is easier, should that be the case. I'll see what else i can do. Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

For Westerhound: Yeah i know what you mean. Played CTF_HAARP_TEST6 today and on one of the stages when you spawn as RED and go out from spawndoor, there is this HUGE arrow blocking their way and you need to go around it. The arrow points left and 11/15 of the team went straight forward past the sign despite the signs said left. This isn't the only case, just an example. I know players have the "pipe view" when they see things only in front of them but i guess the issue is more large scaled than that. Seen people run past B to C while they take the left from BLU base in my map so i'm not sure if i should just put a suicide trigger there for BLU if B isn't capped yet (joking).

As for the images
1st: yes, i already infact this morning before seeing the shot kinda collapsed it a bit so you can't actually think that it's accessible at all. This only confirms that i did the right thing.
2nd: That building is a model. With DX8.1 it does look ugly but DX9.0+ it's fine as the building next to it. It just sits there so.. have to think about it. Majority of TF2 players does run the game with higher dx-levels (atleast i think they do).
rest of the images: I think you have some sort of config blocking decals/overlays as infact at those spots, there are signs set. People already said there are too many of those.

For Froz3n: Do you mean the railing outside of the spawn building? The one that goes around that unaccessible roof? I've had reports that the roof should either be accessible or some higher fence should be applied from more than 1 person so i think i'll change that railing off. The horns needs clip yeah or being non-solid. Good point there, didn't even think about it before. The curved wood there is something i've seen in real life, though i rorated the texture 90 degrees and it does look better now. It's a big hassle to change otherwise but if i end up changing that part, i might change that too.

Thanks for all. Keep it coming.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

@What you said to me. Yes I meant those, and thats what I was thinking, something higher, I wouldn't make it accessable, it would allow for camping.
90 deg. texture turn makes more sense.

 

[Pocket]

For Westerhound: Yeah i know what you mean. Played CTF_HAARP_TEST6 today and on one of the stages when you spawn as RED and go out from spawndoor, there is this HUGE arrow blocking their way and you need to go around it. The arrow points left and 11/15 of the team went straight forward past the sign despite the signs said left.

Oh man, I think I know what sign you mean. I've totally done that too. I don't know what is up with that sign.

 

[ics]

Released yet another new version, _b6. Had a slight issue with _b5 - yesterday morning when i was working on it, everything seemed fine. Later that day, when i held a playtest, the BLU doors didn't open at all so they could not get out of the base at all. So i pulled out _b6 that fixed the issue. I personally didn't even touched the doors in that day or the triggers - infact i haven't touched them since _b3 release. Also atleast 1 model was missing from the map and i didn't delete it so it must have been a hammer bug of some sort.

Anyways, the changes that i made since _b4 should make the map better. I did not implement all of the ideas said here but some, i did. Overall, once you find the right spots for right classes to be on, it plays out ok. These are the main changes i did after _b4:

- HUD letters for A and B caps reversed. Now looks more logical as A is on the right and B on the left as seen from BLU base.
- New route added to A (broke a wall down)
- New route added to C (through high house)
- Route between A and B closed and moved to another location (to the wider area ahead) and route to C closed next to that area.
-- Due to these changes, gameplay became much more clear and map more playable for new players who see the map for the first time.
- Improvements to player clips, there where more locations that needed adjustments
- Improvements to arrows within the map that show the directions
- Improved lighting on some locations so you can see better
- Added more details into the map all around it wherever possible or lacking some.

I'm beginning to think what i'll do next, as there isn't much i can do to improve this map, should it need it. I've seen _b6 played once yesterday and on both times, both teams managed to cap C. Atleast now it isn't so hard and it's easier to navigate around. Like stated before, if player cannot see the signs right in front of them or do a simple look on left or right, that's out of my hands. No layout change will make it better.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Alright, I'll be quick because I have to run off to class.

I ran around. Signage is better, there a few places where you could put a sign (I'm thinking of right off of B i believe) where I would run into a tunnel that goes 2 directions (left/right) and I can't tell quickly whichc way tis the point, and chose to wrong way. Thats some you'll need to look out for.


Also, I see now some of the Sentry Ledges over A are blocked by fences and that sentrys don't cover the whole area, this is some I like, but I still don't like the fact that you can still easily be rocket spammed/stickyspammed/Airblasted spammed off of it I still think that platform needs to be bigger.

Also, (I don't have screenies) but some places look a little overdetailed, remember that you can have something look good without props, this also helps with performance issues.

 

[ics]

The reason why i did not make the thing at A bigger - it's kind of hard afterwards when it was designed to be a pit of death. The small platforms leading to the bigger platform there are supposed to be only way to it for the "heavier classes" that move slower. If i go make it bigger, those platforms become useless as you can basically jump to it from any direction. It's mostly a design flaw - the point works as i designed to be working but making the pit larger for bigger platform afterwards is very painlfull thing to do. There is room for making it little wider even nowand i propably will if playtests show that everyone is getting blasted away too easily. I added another route so cappers can escape situations like that and we'll see how it plays out. Making the pit or the platform much larger is very hard thing to do afterwards.

Overdetailing (if it exists) isn't a framerate causing issue for me yet. The fps has always been important thing for me in the past while mapping for other games as i've been the guy with the low end system (and with this 3+ year old machine, i still am). Having great fps myself in the map and lowest i see on this rig while alone, is 145-150. Granted, in-game, that might drop 2-4 times lower with actual players and i still haven't got the Valve optimizations skills or design theory but i'm kind of close. I know how to use areaportals and skip/hints. I can still do cut's with those if needed on some spots to make it better or simply remove details if it comes an issue. I also designed this map fps in-mind. The surrounding area, buildings and such are placed on spots that cut off the fps at certain corners.

Right of tunnel from B.. hmm, atleast there is sign outside of it while exiting from B pointing left but nothing inside. Perhaps i should move it inside to display it. Thanks again.

PS: Having some sort of DNS issues, this site was unaccessible for me 2 days. Worked with Google DNS while i tried today. Talked to some others and i'm not the only one who has had issues. I hope it works ok in the future so i do not have to rely on google dns.

 

[Wilson]

I had a long analysis why pit of death control point is terrible design and showing some examples and then it logged me out and deleted whole post. Here is short version that is not going so deep with this:

Having pit of death cp destroys gameflow and slows game down to snail pace and usually is really unfun for attacking team, you need to make point less spamable and give some advance for blue while they are on point too, teams should be rewarded for taking hold of the point and starting capping it, not punished.