Converge

[honeymustard]

I REALLY liked this map. It was a shame that both teams ended up with 4 or so engineers. A lot of people complained about spawn camping, though it seemed fine to me. Perhaps add a third exit to the spawn, though. Would like to test it in 6v6.

 

[Psy]

Thanks.

Though I haven't watched the demo yet, I'm planning in the next version to make changes to the middle area so that one team cannot hold it with ease. I found that there were too many decent sentry positions and it was generally a little too frantic for a team to push through. I'm also looking at moving the entrance to the room with the drop-down (the one which breaks off from the top corridor and leads to the middle) into the capture area. The overall goal for A7 is to make it much easier to push out of your own base into the middle area to regain control of the front lines.

Generally it was all a bit too Turbine-ish for my liking.

 

[Psy]

Alpha 7 - February 17th

• Moved entrance to the side-room with the drop-down leading to the middle into the cap area. [1]
• Added 3rd exit from spawn.
• Made some minor changes to the middle to reduce nooks and crannies. [2]
• Changed the ammopacks in the middle from medium to small.
• Added pickups towards the front of the bases near the exits into the middle. Lower route has 1 medium health and 1 medium ammo. Upper route has 1 medium ammo. Both are situated close to the exits to help players pushing out of the bases. [3] [4]

 

[lana]

Great, that really fixed the woes I didn't realize I've been having with this map.

 

[grazr]

Ok, so we played this earlier today.

The gameplay is pretty solid, is fun going back and forth. The intel setup works a treat. A few comments though.

The map is small: Which does mean players get into combat quicker but it also means your map will suffer from gameplay/visual monotony. combat was samey and i can't imagine playing more than 20 minutes before getting fatigued.

The initial battle over the intel generally dictates the winning team for that capture attempt, unless an sg wipes the remaining players between defender death and respawn. The carrier can normally get to the cap point before the dead respawn/defenders respawn and manage to intercept them. Also, an engineer barely gets up a level 1 sentry and dispenser by the time his team wipes and the attackers are capping the intel. Give or take.

I would not resolve this with faster spawn timers, they are already sufficient. But creating a 'go between' between the cap zone and intel location. Which will resolve other map size related issues, and also provide sentry defence intercept locations, and make the teleporter a less redundant piece of hardware. You can afford to do this with invade mode ctf, as opposed to regular ctf where it poses a respawn layout issue, which also involves the gameplay mechanic of an assault into the base, past defenders, and another assault out, past the respawned, refreshed and aware defenders; whom can also track the carriers movements on the HUD.

Secondly; the first floor in the cap room sits 256 units above the ground floor. This is a fair height and really stands out indoors, especially for a player to climb a straight sets of stairs. You might wanna lower the floor to 192 units, but still retain the room height. 2fort's ramp room is a comfortable height in regards to catwalks.

 

[Psy]

Ok, so we played this earlier today.

The gameplay is pretty solid, is fun going back and forth. The intel setup works a treat. A few comments though.

The map is small: Which does mean players get into combat quicker but it also means your map will suffer from gameplay/visual monotony. combat was samey and i can't imagine playing more than 20 minutes before getting fatigued.

The initial battle over the intel generally dictates the winning team for that capture attempt, unless an sg wipes the remaining players between defender death and respawn. The carrier can normally get to the cap point before the dead respawn/defenders respawn and manage to intercept them. Also, an engineer barely gets up a level 1 sentry and dispenser by the time his team wipes and the attackers are capping the intel. Give or take.

I would not resolve this with faster spawn timers, they are already sufficient. But creating a 'go between' between the cap zone and intel location. Which will resolve other map size related issues, and also provide sentry defence intercept locations, and make the teleporter a less redundant piece of hardware. You can afford to do this with invade mode ctf, as opposed to regular ctf where it poses a respawn layout issue, which also involves the gameplay mechanic of an assault into the base, past defenders, and another assault out, past the respawned, refreshed and aware defenders; whom can also track the carriers movements on the HUD.

Secondly; the first floor in the cap room sits 256 units above the ground floor. This is a fair height and really stands out indoors, especially for a player to climb a straight sets of stairs. You might wanna lower the floor to 192 units, but still retain the room height. 2fort's ramp room is a comfortable height in regards to catwalks.

I think I understand what you mean by a 'go between'. I'm going to assume that you're describing an another area to funnel players through before making it into the intel room. I'll argue that such an idea would simply make it easier for a team to take over the middle and keep players inside their own base.

 

[grazr]

That was what i meant, yes.

Baring in mind that this is supposed to be a ctf comp map designed for 6 vs 6, there isn't going to be much 'take and hold' going on of any area (providing you can prevent spawn camping). Due to the dynamic nature of the objective, take and hold would be ineffective anyway, once the intel spawned; providing the intel turns nuetral 'on drop' instead of directly returning to 'home'.

However, if you're like me and want this map to play well publicly as well; in preventing "middle taking" you can either include a battlements from the bases to provide a height advantage for base defenses, or increase a few sightlights from the left and right (no-mans land flanks) in the central area. Allowing classes like snipers, demo's and soldier's to take any possible no-mans land sentry nests. Although as it is with the existing central areas vertical layout design, i would imagine most demomen could manage this alone already.

Map pro's you already have in place that prevent this outcome:

• You have many large exits (unlike 2fort), which prevent the focusing of multiple player spam.
• Your exits are also spread out across your bases front (unlike 2fort), preventing a single sentry's sightlines covering all direct exits.
• Your exits are located at different forward areas (unlike 2fort), which again prevents a single sentry from covering all base exits. It also allows scouts to flank and mop up potential WIP sentry nests before they go up.
• Medium health and ammo kits located fairly close to a teams exits, meaning defenders don't suffer spam fatigue on their health (like in 2fort), and the strength lies in the penetration of base walls rather than setting up camp outside them

The strength lies in assaulting the base(s) and getting past the middle, penetrating the base walls for a cap, grabbing health and ammo on the way (your item locations promote this).

Given these facts i wouldn't particularly worry about this issue unless it presents itself during testing. My concern would more likely be focused towards enemies controlling the go between, but given the distances between the defenders spawn and enemies spawn on the other side of the map, defences should be able to prevent that from happening. Plus your go between doesn't have to be massive.

 

[Psy]

You raise a lot of good points! If you could provide me with some sort of idea of how to implement the area then that would be great. Regardless I'm going to try it out.

 

[Psy]

Here's what I managed to create for the area.

2 entrances from either route into the base, 2 entrances into the intel room as before and the entrance to the one-way route has been moved to this area as well. Thoughts?

 

[Void]

The scaled-up floor devs are disorienting, but, knowing you, they won't be there much longer.

 

[grazr]

You might consider this?

It looks more complicated than it is, but that's due to being able to pass from left to right and vice versa, which you seemed to want for your map. I would personally restrict it, which would increase optimisation and simplify the general base layout. But it would also mean less flanking oppotunities after entering the base. It just depends on your overall desires. Also, it is kind of 'windy' due to restricting long sightlines with doors/walls.

The main issue with this is that due to the spawn placement and how you've just extended backwards, the path on the right is quite long, and to prevent the long sightlines you have to make the route even longer via putting in bends.

Alternatively to what i've presented.. you can see 3 routes to the intel room. Left (lower), middle (upper) and a drop down on the right which is also upper (but one way). The middle path has 2 routes into it (as indicated by the blue arrows), you could remove the entrance from the right side and move it down to where i removed the door from before (on the wall below that i moved further to the left). Adjusting the doors for sightlines/optmisation.

Also, where i put the "jump down" capability at the bottom, you might alternatively include a wall with a window in it, as there's a fair view into the corridor running parralell, through that doorway. It would stop spamming through it but keep the capacity to view threats available.

With the additions you have made, i think you can afford to move the spawn forwards some, you already have 2 corridors from your spawn.

edit: updated image (might want to refresh page to see).

 

[Randdalf]

Thing is Grazr, the base kind of feels a bit complex already without those additions, if they are added, I feel some simplification could be in order.

 

[grazr]

Thing is Grazr, the base kind of feels a bit complex already without those additions, if they are added, I feel some simplification could be in order.

Well yea, i mentioned this issue in the post you're replying too. But as i also mentioned, bringing the spawn forwards will nullify the need to prevent long sightlines through dividing walls, and thus reduce complexity. Since there would be no sightlines that require shortening.

Personally, as it is, i find the base is tiny, there's no time between the intel and the cap point, which is also down to the bases current basic structure and small size. It's possible for a team to kill half the enemy, grab the intel and cap it before the defenders can even respawn to intercept. Which means once you wipe in the middle, you lose that cap attempt. There's no back and forth so there's less dynamics in the gameplay. Which is why i said it'd suffer turbine fever through monotonous gameplay.

I'll give it another go, assuming the spawn is braught forward.

 

[Psy]

I like some of your ideas such as adding more space for maneuver near the lower left entrance and reducing the size of the area slightly but your other ideas make the base seem incredibly complex. I'm sitting here looking at the map and I'm thinking, "Does it really need to be this complex to offer a wider variety of strategy?". I don't want a plethora of 90 degree turns because they simply make it more difficult to navigate around the base especially to new players and I definitely don't want several areas spread all around.

 

[grazr]

With less arrows and doors and bends, by bringing the spawn forwards.

 

[Psy]

Alpha 8 is out with the only change being the new area I posted before. Interestingly, the time it takes to get out of the base and reach the flag in the middle is now the same length as the cooldown.

EDIT: Make that A8b. There was a player clip for a doorframe about 128 units lower then it should have been essentially blocking the door. D:

 

[Psy]

After today's test I'm going to modify the top route by adding some health and removing the right-hand exit in the small room with the window in hope of making it a safer and more viable route.

 

[Psy]

Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to make it to tonight's test. In the meantime take a peek at these.

 

[lana]

Is that a custom texture on the pillars?

 

[DaBeatzProject]

Ever heard of CONCRETE?