Mangy, I think he's confused about the place holder dev textures. ^^
Looking at the over view, looks like a lot of straight long pieces of track. Obviously it's only early alpha but it would be nice to see some cover and obstacles to remedy this.
[Contest Entry] pl_frontier
- Thread starter MangyCarface
- Start date
Mangy, I think he's confused about the place holder dev textures. ^^
Looking at the over view, looks like a lot of straight long pieces of track. Obviously it's only early alpha but it would be nice to see some cover and obstacles to remedy this.
- Feb 26, 2008
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Ah, grazr. In my original dev drawings, I had planned for the track to be even straighter- the train, with its former, longer flatbed, looked awkward around sharp turns, and the turns are what make the engine buggy. However, at its current development, I believe there is a very good balance between turns and straights. The cover and obstacles around the track are what make the gameplay interesting.
I may however have to agree with you about this right before CP4, the last one.
I may however have to agree with you about this right before CP4, the last one.
I can see how that would be difficult, indeed. Well, i was concentrating my gaze mostly at the bottom left (where i think it's heading uphill?). The first part looks sufficiently wobbly (not much else you can do with such a long track vehicle) but that part specifically just looked like it would get completely pinned down by snipers.
The ending doesn't look as bad as that bit though; of course, i'd have to play it to understand the gameplay dynamics more to give any more accurate/sound advice/recommendations.
The ending doesn't look as bad as that bit though; of course, i'd have to play it to understand the gameplay dynamics more to give any more accurate/sound advice/recommendations.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I was running around the map earlier as a blue scout. Every time I was riding inside the Engine and we hit the top or bottom of a steep ramp, it pushed me up onto the roof.
On another note, what the heck kind of server was that running on last night? 31 players, random sounds, disgusting pictures? What the heck?
The train is WIN, btw.
On another note, what the heck kind of server was that running on last night? 31 players, random sounds, disgusting pictures? What the heck?
The train is WIN, btw.
- Feb 26, 2008
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Ah, yes, the train cabin is a bit buggy.
Anyway, UPDATED. See first post for info. Anyone who's playtested, be sure to dl the new version! Lots of balance changes!
Okay, so edit is not working at the moment, so here:
UPDATE 10/7/2008: a4
Changelog:
a4: Respawn timers messed with
Additional BLU spawn exit added, needs work
CP1 made easier through a couple of things, still a bit too hard
CP2 made harder with geometry/timer changes
Time added messed with
Two train bugs fixed
Windows added to help BLU in many areas
CP4 spam blockers added
Lots of other small changes!
Anyway, UPDATED. See first post for info. Anyone who's playtested, be sure to dl the new version! Lots of balance changes!
Okay, so edit is not working at the moment, so here:
UPDATE 10/7/2008: a4
Changelog:
a4: Respawn timers messed with
Additional BLU spawn exit added, needs work
CP1 made easier through a couple of things, still a bit too hard
CP2 made harder with geometry/timer changes
Time added messed with
Two train bugs fixed
Windows added to help BLU in many areas
CP4 spam blockers added
Lots of other small changes!
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We played a4 tonight with around 8 people on each team. It plays much better with the changes you made. One thing I would recommend is switching the respawn timers. Right now blue has a 6 second respawn while red has an instant respawn. I think an instant respawn for blue and a 5-10 second respawn for red would work better. It's very difficult to win the final checkpoint right now since the defenders instantly respawn and come out in a very good defensive position over the track.
flubber
L4: Comfortable Member
- Nov 16, 2007
- 171
- 35
We just played @ 12vs12, well it's gonna be good 
Problem list :
- respawn wave as mention by chilly
- Final red respawn are confusing, it's too messy
- need secondary spawn for red between the two actually existing, since the action is actually on the first then last part, the middle part doesn't show any big fight in our game.
- The end is Epic love it.
We'll make a more serious test tonight with regular players.
Problem list :
- respawn wave as mention by chilly
- Final red respawn are confusing, it's too messy
- need secondary spawn for red between the two actually existing, since the action is actually on the first then last part, the middle part doesn't show any big fight in our game.
- The end is Epic love it.
We'll make a more serious test tonight with regular players.
the train idea is amazing. But Im pressy sure there must be a way to make the flatbed behind it not be so stiff behind it. it must be possible to have them pivot compared to each other. the starting sequence of half-life2 has moving trains with pivoting carts,
the idea is amazingly well thought of! If you could have the flatbed pivot, you could have it larger, with some big bombs on it, having it dive in at the end ... oh man, I wish I had though of this
Im gonna try and experiment a bit with train stuff, Ill let you know if I find a way to have it pivoting.
the idea is amazingly well thought of! If you could have the flatbed pivot, you could have it larger, with some big bombs on it, having it dive in at the end ... oh man, I wish I had though of this
Im gonna try and experiment a bit with train stuff, Ill let you know if I find a way to have it pivoting.
- Feb 26, 2008
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Thanks guys as always; Responses to follow:
I'm starting to like what the last point is like; if your team does well on the previous 3, then you have lots of time to whittle the train all the way over teh edge, but if you're pressed hard to take each one, you're only gonna have 5 minutes or so to make the push. That being said it may be too hard as is. So here's what I'm proposing for the last point:
Small! Changes to respawn times; since the games I've seen were so close, with a couple BLU wins, I don't want to mess with this too much. 1-2 increase for Red, 1-2 decrease for blu.
A ramp leading from the small building on the right (if you're facing the quarry) up to red's respawn level. Red can already jump straight to that building, so Blu deserves to be able to get up there easier.
CP1:
Several changes including a longer RED respawn to make this point easier; an additional one-way gate; changes to the new setup exit; etc. RED respawn may be moved a tiny bit instead of changing the time manually.
CP2: Beginning to see more of a fight here. I'm tempted to make the new RED respawn everyone wants, but I've seen a couple good defenses on this point, and frankly with the first CP so close to the turn onto the hill, it'd be hard to make that area a choke... I dunno, I might even go for another playtest before a5.
Laz,
please clarify about the flatbed pivoting. Currently they are two separate tracktrains (what a BITCH to setup; you have no idea how hard it gets simply to stop both of them perfectly after passing a CP and rolling back.) The flatbed rotates on its own, and by setting its 'wheel distance' it gives a pretty good approximation of how it would swivel. But I'm interested as to what you mean
I'm starting to like what the last point is like; if your team does well on the previous 3, then you have lots of time to whittle the train all the way over teh edge, but if you're pressed hard to take each one, you're only gonna have 5 minutes or so to make the push. That being said it may be too hard as is. So here's what I'm proposing for the last point:
Small! Changes to respawn times; since the games I've seen were so close, with a couple BLU wins, I don't want to mess with this too much. 1-2 increase for Red, 1-2 decrease for blu.
A ramp leading from the small building on the right (if you're facing the quarry) up to red's respawn level. Red can already jump straight to that building, so Blu deserves to be able to get up there easier.
CP1:
Several changes including a longer RED respawn to make this point easier; an additional one-way gate; changes to the new setup exit; etc. RED respawn may be moved a tiny bit instead of changing the time manually.
CP2: Beginning to see more of a fight here. I'm tempted to make the new RED respawn everyone wants, but I've seen a couple good defenses on this point, and frankly with the first CP so close to the turn onto the hill, it'd be hard to make that area a choke... I dunno, I might even go for another playtest before a5.
Laz,
please clarify about the flatbed pivoting. Currently they are two separate tracktrains (what a BITCH to setup; you have no idea how hard it gets simply to stop both of them perfectly after passing a CP and rolling back.) The flatbed rotates on its own, and by setting its 'wheel distance' it gives a pretty good approximation of how it would swivel. But I'm interested as to what you mean
Remember with your spawn times that all stock maps (A/D and Payload) have no respawn time for attackers and a higher respawn time for defenders. This balances because of the distance attackers have to travel from their spawn and the fact that defenders can dig in with sentries which negates players dying. If you switch the timers it just feels weird. I'd really recommend setting blue to instant respawn and then adjusting red's respawn based on playtesting.
flubber is correct about red's spawn area as well. It feels kind of weird. Here's my suggestion. Basically remove the extra turn and have the defenders come out facing the quarry. Widen the platform/bridge as well, at least 50%, since that will make it feel far more open and playable.
Here's another spot I found that could use some tweaking. The rear ramp really doesn't get used since people just use the one on the front. However the back part has the potential to be a really fun area, especially if you make it a cliff of some sort that people can fall off of. I'd suggest simplifying the platform to remove the front ramp and then put a railing around it. Kind of like a high deck or something.
I'm still not seeing this building get any play, which is unfortunate because it's designed pretty well and is HUGE. I think an overhaul of this area might be a good idea. Perhaps make the track section narrow even more through there to force people to go around, similar to the first choke point on Gold Rush? You might also want to consider simplifying the building a bit by opening up the inside and making it one or two large rooms with 2 levels and stairs in-between. Right now since there's no reason for people to go in there, they avoid it since it's more complex than just running along the tracks. EDIT: Perhaps this would be a good spot for red's spawn for the first 2 CP's? That would make CP1 much easier to capture and then blue would get the shortcut when attacking 2 which might make it work really well.
Also, the arrow pointing off the image points to another area that doesn't get used much. Potentially an area that could be blue's forward spawn? That would serve to feed people into the big building that doesn't get used as well.
This is out the right exit of blue's first spawn. Right along the wall. It looks like a player should be able to fit through, but you can't. I'd suggest closing it entirely or making it a little wider.
One additional thing to consider: maybe you should remove blue's shortcut to the 2nd checkpoint. Just make them run the main route until they cap 2 and then give them the forward spawn (possible location noted above). This would force people along the main route more, be a little less confusing, require less work, decrease the file size, and increase the need for offensive engineers. All of those things are good, in my opinion.
flubber is correct about red's spawn area as well. It feels kind of weird. Here's my suggestion. Basically remove the extra turn and have the defenders come out facing the quarry. Widen the platform/bridge as well, at least 50%, since that will make it feel far more open and playable.
Here's another spot I found that could use some tweaking. The rear ramp really doesn't get used since people just use the one on the front. However the back part has the potential to be a really fun area, especially if you make it a cliff of some sort that people can fall off of. I'd suggest simplifying the platform to remove the front ramp and then put a railing around it. Kind of like a high deck or something.
I'm still not seeing this building get any play, which is unfortunate because it's designed pretty well and is HUGE. I think an overhaul of this area might be a good idea. Perhaps make the track section narrow even more through there to force people to go around, similar to the first choke point on Gold Rush? You might also want to consider simplifying the building a bit by opening up the inside and making it one or two large rooms with 2 levels and stairs in-between. Right now since there's no reason for people to go in there, they avoid it since it's more complex than just running along the tracks. EDIT: Perhaps this would be a good spot for red's spawn for the first 2 CP's? That would make CP1 much easier to capture and then blue would get the shortcut when attacking 2 which might make it work really well.
Also, the arrow pointing off the image points to another area that doesn't get used much. Potentially an area that could be blue's forward spawn? That would serve to feed people into the big building that doesn't get used as well.
This is out the right exit of blue's first spawn. Right along the wall. It looks like a player should be able to fit through, but you can't. I'd suggest closing it entirely or making it a little wider.
One additional thing to consider: maybe you should remove blue's shortcut to the 2nd checkpoint. Just make them run the main route until they cap 2 and then give them the forward spawn (possible location noted above). This would force people along the main route more, be a little less confusing, require less work, decrease the file size, and increase the need for offensive engineers. All of those things are good, in my opinion.
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I just ran through this as a blue scout, and when I got to the end, I didn't ride it over the edge. Waited after the explosion and jumped down. Fell three hundred feet to the hole. And then 70 feet down the hole. And then survived. ?!!!
I keep looking for servers running this, but haven't found any over the past night or two.
I keep looking for servers running this, but haven't found any over the past night or two.
ChronoTriggerFan
L420: High Member
- Feb 3, 2008
- 434
- 73
Well, servers really don't like running alpha stage maps in their rotations, unfortunately.
flubber
L4: Comfortable Member
- Nov 16, 2007
- 171
- 35
There is just a little time of play on the map, but it could still be usefull (the map will be played again this week end).
http://psychostats.canardplus.com/mapheat.php?id=59
http://psychostats.canardplus.com/mapheat.php?id=59
- Feb 26, 2008
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Thanks for all the feedback guys. Very excited to see the heatmap develop flubber, thanks for running the map.
To address a lot of the things you guys pointed out I finished a5, which incorporates several suggested changes here and there, as much as I could accommodate, as well as changing the balance for different points, especially to make CP1 easier to cap. Please run this version from now on. I apologize for updating so frequently but I very much desire to achieve gameplay balance so that it will be fun for everyone who helped playtest, and as long as you continue to give me fairly frequent updates on balance etc I will continue to pump out changes as fast as I can without making a hasty decision.
So, UPDATE: ALPHA 5
Changelist:
CP1 made easier, moved closer.
Respawn times adjusted.
BLU Setup door #4 moved around.
Small bugs fixed.
Geometry added to help attackers in a couple regions; overpowered sniper position nerfed on CP2.
CP2 adjusted to promote fighting on the right side in the warehouse.
Lots of other things... I forget -_- if you suggested it, odds are I incorporated it.
I did NOT add new spawns. I have looked at this closely and do not yet see a need for them. I have measured out the walking distances between frontier and badwater and except for BLU's trek to CP2 at one point, frontier has considerably shorter distances between critical spots. I am still open to argument here, but trying to keep things simple.
Thanks!
To address a lot of the things you guys pointed out I finished a5, which incorporates several suggested changes here and there, as much as I could accommodate, as well as changing the balance for different points, especially to make CP1 easier to cap. Please run this version from now on. I apologize for updating so frequently but I very much desire to achieve gameplay balance so that it will be fun for everyone who helped playtest, and as long as you continue to give me fairly frequent updates on balance etc I will continue to pump out changes as fast as I can without making a hasty decision.
So, UPDATE: ALPHA 5
Changelist:
CP1 made easier, moved closer.
Respawn times adjusted.
BLU Setup door #4 moved around.
Small bugs fixed.
Geometry added to help attackers in a couple regions; overpowered sniper position nerfed on CP2.
CP2 adjusted to promote fighting on the right side in the warehouse.
Lots of other things... I forget -_- if you suggested it, odds are I incorporated it.
I did NOT add new spawns. I have looked at this closely and do not yet see a need for them. I have measured out the walking distances between frontier and badwater and except for BLU's trek to CP2 at one point, frontier has considerably shorter distances between critical spots. I am still open to argument here, but trying to keep things simple.
Thanks!
We played this again tonight and think we had 9-9. CP1 seems perfect now. Once you start detailing, try to remember to make the left side tunnel more obvious since people still tend to forget it's there. Also, you might want to make the metal in there a medium instead of a large, since it's so close to the attacker's spawn. Not a big deal, though.
Also for detailing, a big Badwater-style arrow right outside red's first spawn would be helpful. We had 2 people run the wrong way again. Maybe even have one of those signs across the path in that wrong direction until CP1 is capped, and have it say "Wrong Way". Just an idea if you find people are easily confused there. Another more natural solution would be to angle that spawn towards CP1. That way as people walk out they just start moving in the right direction.
I can't comment on respawn times because we had instant respawn when there were only 6 of us on the map, and I forgot to turn them back on after that. :/
Red's spawn area feels much better rotated around. The spawn area seems less confusing and congested. I like what you did around CP1 and CP3 with the windows on the buildings. Snipers seemed to like it and the one by CP1 will really help demomen attack sentries in that area. They played very well.
The side building by CP2 did get played a little more, but still not as much as you'd probably like. I'd probably leave it for now, but one possible solution would be to have the cart turn towards the warehouse before continuing up the slope where the rocks currently are. Then the rocks could be moved to where the track reaches the top of the slope now. That would funnel people directly into the warehouse. I wouldn't make any changes based on my opinion until you get more testing feedback, though.
Overall I think you're close to nailing it for gameplay. We had a ton of fun and I think every class was used pretty efficiently. The map is awesomely fun for offensive engineering, which is what I did tonight.
Also for detailing, a big Badwater-style arrow right outside red's first spawn would be helpful. We had 2 people run the wrong way again.
Maybe even have one of those signs across the path in that wrong direction until CP1 is capped, and have it say "Wrong Way". Just an idea if you find people are easily confused there. Another more natural solution would be to angle that spawn towards CP1. That way as people walk out they just start moving in the right direction.I can't comment on respawn times because we had instant respawn when there were only 6 of us on the map, and I forgot to turn them back on after that. :/
Red's spawn area feels much better rotated around. The spawn area seems less confusing and congested. I like what you did around CP1 and CP3 with the windows on the buildings. Snipers seemed to like it and the one by CP1 will really help demomen attack sentries in that area. They played very well.
The side building by CP2 did get played a little more, but still not as much as you'd probably like. I'd probably leave it for now, but one possible solution would be to have the cart turn towards the warehouse before continuing up the slope where the rocks currently are. Then the rocks could be moved to where the track reaches the top of the slope now. That would funnel people directly into the warehouse. I wouldn't make any changes based on my opinion until you get more testing feedback, though.
Overall I think you're close to nailing it for gameplay. We had a ton of fun and I think every class was used pretty efficiently. The map is awesomely fun for offensive engineering, which is what I did tonight.
- Feb 26, 2008
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This is interesting... because I was considering making some of those areas easier for blue... Last point is definitely too hard.
Might need more information on your class setup. Did you guys run engies on defense? Where'd they setup? How well do your players know the map? I'd be interested to see if RED improves with more playtesting, as I feel need a more conscious, concentrated effort at offensively defending in order to keep BLU from getting on the train and capping points. Sitting back and spamming won't help in this map like in goldrush...
Not trying to accuse your players of playing poorly, I appreciate the feedback from the 24p servers as your own. Could you possibly run the map a bit more if your players are up to it and see what happens? I'm delaying A6 until more gameplay feedback, and I'm detailing the first area up to the first point as I'm relatively satisfied with that area. Thanks again
Might need more information on your class setup. Did you guys run engies on defense? Where'd they setup? How well do your players know the map? I'd be interested to see if RED improves with more playtesting, as I feel need a more conscious, concentrated effort at offensively defending in order to keep BLU from getting on the train and capping points. Sitting back and spamming won't help in this map like in goldrush...
Not trying to accuse your players of playing poorly, I appreciate the feedback from the 24p servers as your own. Could you possibly run the map a bit more if your players are up to it and see what happens? I'm delaying A6 until more gameplay feedback, and I'm detailing the first area up to the first point as I'm relatively satisfied with that area. Thanks again
flubber
L4: Comfortable Member
- Nov 16, 2007
- 171
- 35
Well i'll try to launch the map with regular player (as yesterday) because they don't rtv or gonext if the map is a wip.
I've just made the heatmaps (this is still the screenshots from beta4) but it shows well where actions took place.
Next game i'll try to record a demo.
http://psychostats.canardplus.com/mapheat.php?id=73
I've just made the heatmaps (this is still the screenshots from beta4) but it shows well where actions took place.
Next game i'll try to record a demo.
http://psychostats.canardplus.com/mapheat.php?id=73
When we played it there were generally 2-3 engineers and they'd spread out pretty far. I think the thing making it so hard is that there's no really good spot for building ubers and a forward base. If you try building by checkpoint 3 you get flanked by soldiers and demomen coming over the wall. It's really not a protected area anyway. Most players don't use the path to the right (from the attacker's perspective) as well since it's not well marked and many don't know it's there. I suppose they'll use it more once the map is detailed and people learn it better, but you might also consider changing that building on the right so the attackers have a protected area where they can attack from.
If you're not sure where I'm talking about I can draw it up on the overhead image.
If you're not sure where I'm talking about I can draw it up on the overhead image.
bomc
L2: Junior Member
- Sep 25, 2008
- 83
- 18
feedback
so, me and some of my friends decided to test this map, and i gotta say, im pretty impressed ^^
first i would like to say that im just a normal tf2 player, and i cant make anything more than a simple orange map (and some awesome pictures in paint, lol), so you dont have to change the thing below, if you dont want to, or if you have a better idea.
We were only 5 people testing the map, so we couldnt judge the basic layout of the map.
I love the train, it is a good variation of the basic bomb-cart, but there is some issues with it.
First you can get stuck by standing in the front of the train and you have to wait untill the train makes a turn, before you can get free. I dont know how you can fix this, but there have to be some kind of solution.
I think the front front part of the train is too covered. You can (as illustrated below) pass a sentry, without getting shot, thanks to the cover. A solution could be to remove the side windows in the train, so that you still get cover on the front, but can be shot from the sides.
When the train goes through a checkpoint, the top of the train goes straight through the checkpoint thingy-wingy, that shows wich team has the checkpoint. Also theres some strange reflections in the "blu" sign on the wagon and the windows sometimes.
When you try to build things on the train, it shows the 3d model of the building, but you cant build.
The blue spawnroom, is a kind of "train station", where the train came from, right? It seems a little wierd that theres a bridge from one side to another, when the train is supposed to have rode there. You could use one of the two solutions below, to make it easier to get to the other side of the station.
Also, it is unnecessary to have two exits from the blue spawnroom, that goes to the exact same place, it is just confusing. i suggest that you make some stairs, and delete one of the spawn exits, since they both are well protected from demos and soldiers.
The green area on the picture is pretty action-empty. if a player want to take the shortcut, then he will follow the black arrow, so i suggest that you just delete the area, and move the ammo and healthpack somewhere else.
You can see under the tree in the corner, just before the gate. i also think that the high cliff should be accesable from the top of the gate, i could be a good sentry spot, and i little easter egg. To get to the top of the gate you can build a dispenser on the little red stair-looking blocks, and get one the roof next to the gate.
Another little easter egg, could be to place a little thing to jump on on the wall (red spot on the picture) and make people albe to acces the little blue roof and the stone/cliff. (also a good sentry spot, both for red, and smart offensive blu engies).
One last thing is that i think you should make it more clear, where you can walk/jump at the end-hole-thingy, and where you cant. you could make banisters on the edge, and make the cliff more steep.
so, me and some of my friends decided to test this map, and i gotta say, im pretty impressed ^^
first i would like to say that im just a normal tf2 player, and i cant make anything more than a simple orange map (and some awesome pictures in paint, lol), so you dont have to change the thing below, if you dont want to, or if you have a better idea.
We were only 5 people testing the map, so we couldnt judge the basic layout of the map.
I love the train, it is a good variation of the basic bomb-cart, but there is some issues with it.
First you can get stuck by standing in the front of the train and you have to wait untill the train makes a turn, before you can get free. I dont know how you can fix this, but there have to be some kind of solution.
I think the front front part of the train is too covered. You can (as illustrated below) pass a sentry, without getting shot, thanks to the cover. A solution could be to remove the side windows in the train, so that you still get cover on the front, but can be shot from the sides.
When the train goes through a checkpoint, the top of the train goes straight through the checkpoint thingy-wingy, that shows wich team has the checkpoint. Also theres some strange reflections in the "blu" sign on the wagon and the windows sometimes.
When you try to build things on the train, it shows the 3d model of the building, but you cant build.
The blue spawnroom, is a kind of "train station", where the train came from, right? It seems a little wierd that theres a bridge from one side to another, when the train is supposed to have rode there. You could use one of the two solutions below, to make it easier to get to the other side of the station.
Also, it is unnecessary to have two exits from the blue spawnroom, that goes to the exact same place, it is just confusing. i suggest that you make some stairs, and delete one of the spawn exits, since they both are well protected from demos and soldiers.
The green area on the picture is pretty action-empty. if a player want to take the shortcut, then he will follow the black arrow, so i suggest that you just delete the area, and move the ammo and healthpack somewhere else.
You can see under the tree in the corner, just before the gate. i also think that the high cliff should be accesable from the top of the gate, i could be a good sentry spot, and i little easter egg
. To get to the top of the gate you can build a dispenser on the little red stair-looking blocks, and get one the roof next to the gate.
Another little easter egg, could be to place a little thing to jump on on the wall (red spot on the picture) and make people albe to acces the little blue roof and the stone/cliff. (also a good sentry spot, both for red, and smart offensive blu engies).
One last thing is that i think you should make it more clear, where you can walk/jump at the end-hole-thingy, and where you cant. you could make banisters on the edge, and make the cliff more steep.
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