[Contest Entry] pl_frontier
- Thread starter MangyCarface
- Start date
- Feb 26, 2008
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UPDATED: see first post.
- Feb 26, 2008
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Yes, by about 40%. A necessary change.
I've tested a1 yesterday and here are a few things I've found a few things:
Strange reflections, but I think you have to build cubemaps or something.
Looks strange, not sure you can do anything. Can you "round" the transition?
Flying tree!
With a scout, jumping on the rock, you can see there, not really great
Same thing here, you can see things we shouldn't
Without details and textures, the framerate is impressive, never got this high
I got no bug with the train
Strange reflections, but I think you have to build cubemaps or something.
Looks strange, not sure you can do anything. Can you "round" the transition?
Flying tree!
With a scout, jumping on the rock, you can see there, not really great
Same thing here, you can see things we shouldn't
Without details and textures, the framerate is impressive, never got this high
I got no bug with the train
- Feb 26, 2008
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Well I'm on a3 right now, but:
-Only one cubemap, as I'm keeping filesize down for now
If you can see anything over the cliffline, I really don't care. No detail at all has been worked into the map. Really just lookin for gameplay. I'll look into rounding the transition for the train, thanks for the feedback
-Only one cubemap, as I'm keeping filesize down for now
If you can see anything over the cliffline, I really don't care. No detail at all has been worked into the map. Really just lookin for gameplay. I'll look into rounding the transition for the train, thanks for the feedback
I've not yet put your map on my servers for a playtest, but guess I may be doing that this week-end
For the layout and the gameplay, seems fun, but I'll test with friends so we have a better idea
For the layout and the gameplay, seems fun, but I'll test with friends so we have a better idea
- Feb 26, 2008
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If you do run it... run a3 please. See UPDATED first post.
This is perfection in the making.
Played this with a smaller number of people (6-6) and have feedback based on that. First of all, everyone was really excited about it. It's one of the better starts to a payload map that we've seen, and we've done extensive playtesting on es_cave/pl_cave for Spacemonkey and played all of Youme's hoodoo releases. I won't say it's as good as hoodoo was at this stage, but it does definitely have the potential to be as good.
Now, onto my thoughts which are based on talking with everyone as we played. I'll start with some more generic comments.
1. What an excellent map for spies. There are a ton of hiding spots and some nice overpasses to attack from.
2. Engineers will definitely be useful, but I think you should reduce the "shortcut" path somehow. Right now the attackers gain too much ground too quickly, which I'll explain with the image below.
3. It's pretty well balanced for each of the classes, but I think the first half will be very spammy because it's so narrow. I'd suggest trying to make it wider in the first half of the map and leaving the second half.
4. The balance is a bit off because of #2 and #3 right now. It's hard to tell with 6-6, but I really think with a full server the attackers will have an impossible time getting to the first checkpoint. Once they get there, however, it's pretty much a free ride until they reach the last 1/3 of the map. I think this is a result of the spawn positions, shortcut accessibility, and spawn timers. A number of defensive sentries might balance it more, but you don't want to force the defenders to have more than 2 sentries.
5. The last 1/3 of the map is the most fun. I think it's because the layout is pretty simple, but it still allows the attackers and defenders a variety of paths/locations to choose from. I think the first 1/3 of the map would be more fun if it were wider and simplified a bit.
6. The explosion should either be much larger or shouldn't hurt people standing on the tracks above.
7. The rear spawn for red is a bit small and cramped on the way out. I'd suggest widening the path to prevent spawn camping (let the people move around a bit more on their way out).
8. The edge of the quarry is fun for building hidden teleporter exits, but is somewhat useless otherwise. It has the potential for being one of the most fun areas of the map too. I'd suggest doubling the length of the tracks into the quarry or exposing the tracks more at that point, which would allow sentries down below to hit people on the tracks above.
Here's the picture...
Yellow areas: These are where most of the fighting occurred. Each time we played it, we jumped from that first section to the second with very little fighting in-between. I think this would change a bit once people know the map (and good sentry locations), but it was pretty apparent that something was still off.
Red areas: I don't remember being in these areas at all. I think the first red area is the shortcut for the attackers, but if not then both of these areas got very little action. That may be because we didn't know the map yet, or it may be a result of there being no need for us to go in those areas since the attackers cruised right through with little resistance. I'm sure that's not useful, but I figured I'd mention it in case someone else felt the same.
Pink areas: I said that the last 1/3 of the map is fun because of the simplicity of it. These areas are not fun for the opposite reason. It's obviously hard to tell what your goal is with no texturing, but these areas were still too complex. In the first one, instead of having multiple ramps including a switchback ramp, you might want to just make it an inclined area and put a single stairway inside the building (if the design allows). There's also a gap between that area and where the cart starts that's too small/high for a player to get through, but too low/unprotected to be useful for sentries or attacking from above. I think this area just needs some simplification. The second pink area is similar, with stairs going up, half walls, etc. Those half walls (on the upper level) are positioned in a way that they're useless for defending sentries and only get in the way of defenders. The lower platform is impossible to jump onto from the ground, especially when you're in the middle of fighting. My recommendation would be to greatly increase the width of this area, add small steps onto the lower platform, and simplify the upper level.
Like I said, we didn't have that many people on the server and didn't know the map, so take this feedback with a grain of salt. Hope it helps, though.
Now, onto my thoughts which are based on talking with everyone as we played. I'll start with some more generic comments.
1. What an excellent map for spies. There are a ton of hiding spots and some nice overpasses to attack from.
2. Engineers will definitely be useful, but I think you should reduce the "shortcut" path somehow. Right now the attackers gain too much ground too quickly, which I'll explain with the image below.
3. It's pretty well balanced for each of the classes, but I think the first half will be very spammy because it's so narrow. I'd suggest trying to make it wider in the first half of the map and leaving the second half.
4. The balance is a bit off because of #2 and #3 right now. It's hard to tell with 6-6, but I really think with a full server the attackers will have an impossible time getting to the first checkpoint. Once they get there, however, it's pretty much a free ride until they reach the last 1/3 of the map. I think this is a result of the spawn positions, shortcut accessibility, and spawn timers. A number of defensive sentries might balance it more, but you don't want to force the defenders to have more than 2 sentries.
5. The last 1/3 of the map is the most fun. I think it's because the layout is pretty simple, but it still allows the attackers and defenders a variety of paths/locations to choose from. I think the first 1/3 of the map would be more fun if it were wider and simplified a bit.
6. The explosion should either be much larger or shouldn't hurt people standing on the tracks above.
7. The rear spawn for red is a bit small and cramped on the way out. I'd suggest widening the path to prevent spawn camping (let the people move around a bit more on their way out).
8. The edge of the quarry is fun for building hidden teleporter exits, but is somewhat useless otherwise. It has the potential for being one of the most fun areas of the map too. I'd suggest doubling the length of the tracks into the quarry or exposing the tracks more at that point, which would allow sentries down below to hit people on the tracks above.
Here's the picture...
Yellow areas: These are where most of the fighting occurred. Each time we played it, we jumped from that first section to the second with very little fighting in-between. I think this would change a bit once people know the map (and good sentry locations), but it was pretty apparent that something was still off.
Red areas: I don't remember being in these areas at all. I think the first red area is the shortcut for the attackers, but if not then both of these areas got very little action. That may be because we didn't know the map yet, or it may be a result of there being no need for us to go in those areas since the attackers cruised right through with little resistance. I'm sure that's not useful, but I figured I'd mention it in case someone else felt the same.
Pink areas: I said that the last 1/3 of the map is fun because of the simplicity of it. These areas are not fun for the opposite reason. It's obviously hard to tell what your goal is with no texturing, but these areas were still too complex. In the first one, instead of having multiple ramps including a switchback ramp, you might want to just make it an inclined area and put a single stairway inside the building (if the design allows). There's also a gap between that area and where the cart starts that's too small/high for a player to get through, but too low/unprotected to be useful for sentries or attacking from above. I think this area just needs some simplification. The second pink area is similar, with stairs going up, half walls, etc. Those half walls (on the upper level) are positioned in a way that they're useless for defending sentries and only get in the way of defenders. The lower platform is impossible to jump onto from the ground, especially when you're in the middle of fighting. My recommendation would be to greatly increase the width of this area, add small steps onto the lower platform, and simplify the upper level.
Like I said, we didn't have that many people on the server and didn't know the map, so take this feedback with a grain of salt. Hope it helps, though.
- Feb 26, 2008
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Chilly,
highly useful feedback. I ESPECIALLY agree with point 8. However before I can respond to the rest I need to know, entirely, what version you ran... was it a3? That map overview is from a1 and frankly a lot has changed. If you can tell me which version you ran I'll be able to implement some of your ideas.
Thanks again,
Mangy
highly useful feedback. I ESPECIALLY agree with point 8. However before I can respond to the rest I need to know, entirely, what version you ran... was it a3? That map overview is from a1 and frankly a lot has changed. If you can tell me which version you ran I'll be able to implement some of your ideas.
Thanks again,
Mangy
Dude, make your own textures it's not that hard! aI'll help you if you want.
- Feb 26, 2008
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Confused... make my own textures? For what?
We were running a3. We played it last night.
ShroudedSiege... what type of drugs and where can I get some?
just did a quick run thru on blue in A3 mangy and i gotta say that train is badass, the toot toot should be louder and yeah definately should seal off that train cabin it causes alot of problems. i couldnt tell if i got into that shortcut wasn't trying hard to find it but it mightve been cut off(the one in the beginning.)
- Feb 26, 2008
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Gonna try to address some of the stuff you said Chilly. Don't think of it as just trying to refute you, as I do value your playtesting opinion. I have been running it on a much fuller (16v16) server so I'm going to be seeing the other side of the spectrum; both are important though, and in some ways I wish more things (train speed, cap time etc) scaled to server size. But here we go:
1. Spies-> I do agree spying has been fun. There are some areas where spies could use a bit of buffing, but it really changes throughout the map, so keep me up to date on your personal experiences.
2. Genuinely, offenders have an advantage in small plays of this map, as the respawn waves are clumped further apart. In larger playtests you do see defenders present to give BLU a problem throughout the level. However CP2 suffers a bit from this... not sure what to do quite yet. Good call.
3. I will be widening the map ever so slightly near the "train station" choke before the first point. However, I've observed scouts doing very well... I think the scaling is fairly good, but maybe some areas need to be expanded. More specific examples as you continue to playtest would be great.
4. The first cap is absolutely too hard to cap at the moment. This will be worked on. For the 'steamroll' effect... see point 2. I may end up slowing the train down even further, perhaps to regular payload speed (90 I believe, it's 150 I think now, max) So this is a server size issue in some ways, but open to suggestions.
5. I tend to like the first 1/3 a lot, but that's just me. I'd like the map to be dynamic- so that both teams have to change up their class selection after each section. I think simple can be good, but a bit of complexity allows great players to shine... there's a fine balance. Not sure either way.
6. Explosion effect is temporary, and the kill trigger is way too big, you're right. I will be rechoreographing the explosive finale' when I do my detail passes.
7. Have not yet observed spawn camping on their second spawn... hrm.... something to watch out for. I think having 2 locations means that they're unlikely to get camped, and frankly if blue is all up in their shit, maybe they deserve it.
8. I absolutely agree here. The track may have to be lengthened- not doubled, but slightly lengthened. Sentries down below are kind of weak, but in a way that's supposed to be a recoup area. I'll look at this situation closely and see what may be done.
Thank you for the long, thoughtful commentary, it's really what we love as mapmakers, and though I may not change everything you said specifically, it really helps to have server operators give an overall opinion that may figure directly into my calculations.
1. Spies-> I do agree spying has been fun. There are some areas where spies could use a bit of buffing, but it really changes throughout the map, so keep me up to date on your personal experiences.
2. Genuinely, offenders have an advantage in small plays of this map, as the respawn waves are clumped further apart. In larger playtests you do see defenders present to give BLU a problem throughout the level. However CP2 suffers a bit from this... not sure what to do quite yet. Good call.
3. I will be widening the map ever so slightly near the "train station" choke before the first point. However, I've observed scouts doing very well... I think the scaling is fairly good, but maybe some areas need to be expanded. More specific examples as you continue to playtest would be great.
4. The first cap is absolutely too hard to cap at the moment. This will be worked on. For the 'steamroll' effect... see point 2. I may end up slowing the train down even further, perhaps to regular payload speed (90 I believe, it's 150 I think now, max) So this is a server size issue in some ways, but open to suggestions.
5. I tend to like the first 1/3 a lot, but that's just me. I'd like the map to be dynamic- so that both teams have to change up their class selection after each section. I think simple can be good, but a bit of complexity allows great players to shine... there's a fine balance. Not sure either way.
6. Explosion effect is temporary, and the kill trigger is way too big, you're right. I will be rechoreographing the explosive finale' when I do my detail passes.
7. Have not yet observed spawn camping on their second spawn... hrm.... something to watch out for. I think having 2 locations means that they're unlikely to get camped, and frankly if blue is all up in their shit, maybe they deserve it.
8. I absolutely agree here. The track may have to be lengthened- not doubled, but slightly lengthened. Sentries down below are kind of weak, but in a way that's supposed to be a recoup area. I'll look at this situation closely and see what may be done.
Thank you for the long, thoughtful commentary, it's really what we love as mapmakers, and though I may not change everything you said specifically, it really helps to have server operators give an overall opinion that may figure directly into my calculations.
That makes sense, but right now it takes about the same amount of time to run into the spawn for the defenders than to run down there, and they fully refill in the spawn. For the attackers at that point they're better off just winning the stage if they're already there. For attacking spies, I can see it, but there are plenty of other places around as well. I hope you can make it play more of a role cause we were having fun as pyros blasting each other off in that area... it's a fun part of the map that is unfortunately not played for very long.
We played it again 10-11 tonight and I got new perspective. The middle of the map does get played more, but the first 1/3 is still way too narrow and the attackers have a hard time with it. A lot of people were getting stuck in the train and a few popped through onto the roof. I still think you need some way of getting the middle more play and simplifying the first part a bit, but it's not as imbalanced as I thought.
I recorded a demo, so if you want it let me know.
I recorded a demo, so if you want it let me know.
- Feb 26, 2008
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Agree with both posts. If you could give me a link/send the demo directly to me at mangycarface-at-gmail.com (with the @ symbol in place of -at-) that'd be awesome
PM'd you the link to the demo files. It broke them into multiple parts for some reason, but I zipped them for you.