[Contest Entry] pl_frontier

MangyCarface

Mapper
aa
Feb 26, 2008
1,626
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bomc,
Sorry I missed your post, thanks for the great walktrhough! I shall look at several of those points, unfortunately a lot of the cart physics (like being able to 'build' on it) are not in my hands though. Thanks again!

Anyways, update: Alpha 6 was released. I will however not be giving it over quite yet. In testing several small things came up and I promise to release an A7 tomorrow to address these things and have you playtest. There was a preliminary detail run on the first stretch, not a lot, but enough to give my loyal playtesters some delicious eyecandy. Have a look!

plfrontiera60001kj8.jpg

plfrontiera60003az4.jpg

plfrontiera60004xp0.jpg

Please look forward to A7!
 
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Feb 14, 2008
1,051
931
Looks fantastic! Although the interior could do with a few more overlays or something to spruce it up.
 

laghlagh

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 15, 2008
389
53
Wapow! looks great! I'm not a huge fan of those crates though :( is it brushwork?
 

Forthex

L2: Junior Member
Aug 2, 2008
80
12
Everything so far looks great! However (I hate that word, too), the yellow tinge of the BLU spawn brick is bugging me. I know there was another person in this thread (I'm too lazy to look) who complained about the mini-bridge in the BLU spawn, saying that if a train was originally there, how can that bridge be justified. But now that you've given it a wood texture, it looks temporary and looks deliberately haphazardly placed. Another suggestion too (look at me critique when I haven't even released a map yet, look at me go... :unsure:), why not make the BLU spawn look more like a mini train station? There's that excellent mini-train tunnel model from lumberyard, and it could be easily copied/improved with brushwork (see the map that I sent you, you know the one ;) ).

Wow, that was wordy.
Keep up the awesome work. I know FLOOR will be thrilled with the end result!
 

MangyCarface

Mapper
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Feb 26, 2008
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Thanks guys. I had to skip uploading alpha 7 because it had a few small bugs. I believe alpha 8 will be much better in terms of balance than the last version you've played.
UPDATED: ALPHA 8
CHANGELOG:
Respawn timer adjustments all over
Bit of detail added to first areas
BLU now has a forward respawn after CP1 (that means they have one after every capture :3)
Warehouse geometry drastically changed. Prepare to actually see battles in here!
One-way gate geometry changed next to warehouse. Makes much more sense. Credit to FLOOR_MASTER for a bunch of these ideas.
Additional route added on last point. Roundabout but will take people from bottom level of quarry to one of RED's spawn buildings. Very useful for spies and medic teams, or even demomen.
CP3 blue warehouse changed slightly to promote sentry destruction. Also, due to respawn timers, prepare to see a real battle up the first hill before this point.
One-way area entrance moved near CP3.
Geometry leading up to CP2 has been changed; two routes now go to the right towards the warehouse; some cover added; for A8, sniper positions added for BLU.
Timer now maxes out at 14 minutes, but each capture earns more time than previously. No more Dustbowl 3-2-esque 20 minute battles over the last point.
Geometry changed from points 2-3 to promote BLU snipers and slightly nerf RED ones. Frankly some of RED's sniper shots were absurd.
One-way after CP2 is now only accessible after a CP2 capture. Sorry Chilly, no super-behind-the-lines teleporters there anymore :S
Blockage added on rocky cliffside near CP2 warehouse to stop some RED spam and height advantage bullshit
CP1 moved backwards again, a very slight movement.
Might be forgetting some things...

I hope this caters to everyone's suggestions in little ways. I've seen successful defenses on all points now, although I'd say it's hard to defend CP1, a challenge to defend CP2, 50% to defend CP3, and advantage RED to defend CP4. I think this is how I'd like it. I am continuing to strive for balance in the map, so, my faithful server operators, kindly run it for me? Thanks yall
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
Excellent, sir! Bah @ the removal of my awesome offensive teleporters though. :(

We'll test it this evening for you. I'm sure everyone is going to love seeing it get textured. I'd recommend throwing your most recent screenshots into your first post as well... I'm going to link over to a few promising maps from my giant thread on the Steam forums, to try getting people excited about upcoming maps too. :)
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
At last, I've got a trial yesterday. Defending team was a bit lost on first round, but I'd say that signs are greatly spread everywhere and opening one's eyes should definitively tell him where to go.

I think it's too early to really speak of balancing at this stage, after only one session. From what I played
Pyros seem to have a hard time defending, both with relatively open space at the start and the great protection from the train. Things where a bit easier toward the end, though. Playing spy is quite a pleasure (offensively), with plenty of places and passages to use. The relative complexity of the red base does help to hunt demomen and snipers using the heights.

People have been complaining that red spawns are a chore. Maybe Flubber will explain. But we both aggree that even if it's nicely done, the train is currently a very powerful moving shield, and killing blu players was quite difficult (but once again, on round 1 nearly noone knew the map).
Besides, I'd like to attract your attention on a few places that requires crouching and jumping to get out. Maybe consider clipping those (mostly in blu spawn and its proximity) because it's detrimential to the pace of the game.

People here think that your map has great potential, we're looking forward to updates :)
 
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Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
We had 10-10 on the map last night. Everyone was impressed with the texturing at the beginning. I think it could still use some more details in places, but since you're just getting started I'll hold off until later (unless you want that feedback now?).

I think the forward spawns after each checkpoint ruins things for offensive engineers. I found that building teleporters was mostly useless so I was relegated to just putting up level 1 sentries, which was much less fun.

We had a few complaints about FPS drops in the textured area as well, but I'm not sure if they were significant or not. I'd just suggest trying to optimize as you texture each area.

Other than that, we had two people ask if the train could NOT kill people by running them over, but I think that's fun. I think right now people stand in front of the train to stop it, like a normal cart, thinking it'll work. So either it should be changed or people will just have to get used to it. Perhaps a crafty decal that hints that the train kills would also work?
 

MangyCarface

Mapper
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Feb 26, 2008
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Ah... I'm sorry to hear about the offensive engineers... please recommend a solution as enjie is my second least played class... I think the forward spawns work really well so I doubt I'll be removing them. Optimization will occur later but not too late, and the entire detailed area is definitely alpha, not beta level detail. I still hope to have the train reskinned, which would more clearly illustrate its killing potential.
 

Uriak

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Apr 27, 2008
543
70
Splatter the front with fresh RED blood :p

You could even switch to the blood splattered texture once the trigger_hurt has been used once ^^

There is no solution for offensive engineers so long as you have forward spawns AFAIK. Only very difficult points to cap coupled with long run distances gives incentive to use teleporters. Or possible access behind enemy lines.
 
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Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
Ah... I'm sorry to hear about the offensive engineers... please recommend a solution as enjie is my second least played class... I think the forward spawns work really well so I doubt I'll be removing them. Optimization will occur later but not too late, and the entire detailed area is definitely alpha, not beta level detail. I still hope to have the train reskinned, which would more clearly illustrate its killing potential.

The forward spawns are a tradeoff with engineers. Basically the importance of engineers on offense is inverse to the amount/distance of forward spawns. The reasoning is that your engineers need to provide a fast way for your slow classes to the front lines until you reach the forward spawn. By limiting the number of forward spawns you're also increasing the importance of capping certain checkpoints.

An example is Badwater. The attackers have to run a long way to get to the front lines, which makes it very important for them to have one or two engineers. Once the cart reaches checkpoint 3 the attackers generally have to make a huge push to capture it, but will sacrifice more to do so because of the reward of getting the forward spawn.

I'm not saying that you need to remove forward spawns, but to make engineers useful on offense you need to make it worthwhile for them to put up teleporters. This includes locations far from the spawn that make for excellent forward bases. Examples are all of the 1-way tunnels on Dustbowl and the raised paths on Gold Rush. You could also allow building in blue's first spawn, which would not only allow a teleporter entrance right away, but would also allow a spawn-based sentry. In that area it wouldn't be so bad since any really useful sentry would get destroyed pretty quickly, but it's one of those things that might entertain engineers a bit. :)

One side effect of so many forward spawns is that dying isn't that big of a deal for the attackers. Since they respawn almost instantly and have such a short walk to the front lines, there's no drawback to dying. In some cases it's actually better to die so you can immediately get full health/ammo/cloak, rather than hunting around for ammo and health. A good example is after checkpoint 3, where the attackers barely have to walk at all to get to the action.

If you decide to change your forward spawns, I'd suggest making them work like Badwater: you spawn at the middle until checkpoint 3 is captured, at which point you get the spawn right behind it. No shortcuts are needed. The benefit of this is that it increases the fighting that will happen in the middle of the map since the attackers will have a harder time.

HTH.
 

FLOOR_MASTER

L3: Member
Mar 10, 2008
118
140
I rarely play engineer, but as an offensive class, I find I appreciate dispensers and forward sentries used to prevent the other team from flanking moreso than teleporters.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
I rarely play engineer, but as an offensive class, I find I appreciate dispensers and forward sentries used to prevent the other team from flanking moreso than teleporters.

I respect your opinion and feel similarly on certain maps, but it's something that is very dependent on the class you play and the map you're playing on. Teleporters on Dustbowl, Goldrush, and Badwater don't help much unless you're a heavy or soldier or unless the cart has moved around the bend after the 2nd checkpoint. I'd argue that in most situations a teleporter will help sway the battle more than a sentry used for area denial or a dispenser.

For reference, I play a LOT of demoman, engineer, and spy. As a demoman I don't care one bit about teleporters, but if I play soldier or heavy they're really important to me. As spy I find the thing I rely on the most is dispensers. Like I said, it's very dependent on your class and situation.

Besides, as MangyCarface knows, I play engineer a little different than most. ;)

PS: FLOOR_MASTER... can you let your community know about this: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=736151 ? I've been trying to figure out how to contact you since you guys play customs a lot more than most communities. Karma responds. :)
 

MangyCarface

Mapper
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Feb 26, 2008
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Okay... in youme's thread you discussed what makes a viable sentry position. There are a few places I designed to be forward sentry encampments for BLU to aid the next push. Would you kindly tell what I'd need to do to encourage this in the following areas:
1. Building with the one-way door and window before CP1
2. New area off of CP2 that opens with a CP2 capture; ends in a one-way door
3. Area to the left going up the hill on CP2-CP3 that has a room with a partition, triangular brush and a one-way door
4. Various areas around RED's last point, especially the newer areas and down on the quarry's levels

These are all supposed to facilitate the next area's push but if you're not finding them helpful, how do you suggest I move ahead in this area?
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
I'll get another overhead shot of each area and get back to you. I think part of it is funneling people into those areas. If you think of the good setup spots on most maps, people naturally flow into those areas on offense. They tend to be somewhat protected, which you've done. The hard part will be making those areas useful enough to warrant forward bases, since they're so close to the spawns now, while not significantly throwing off the balance. I'll post a picture later.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
Ok, as requested I did those screenshots and drawings. It was harder than the drawings I did for youme, and probably less useful, since I still believe the forward spawns reduce the need for forward engineer bases. I also struggled since there are some areas that are pretty much perfect that don't get used because there's better strategic (or more fitting in the flow) positions nearby. So it's not so much changing that location as changing the other nearby location. I focused on the areas you requested...

This first area is tough, since I like a lot of it, but you're right about that building not getting used much. I think this is mostly a result of the spawn being so close to CP1, where there's no need for a forward base. Nobody's going to wait for a teleporter when they can walk 5 seconds and get to the same spot. Same for ubers... why risk building somewhere out in the map when you can build them at the spawn and be 100% safe. Think about Badwater... it's rare that engineers will set up until after CP1. I do it once in a while on the ledge, just to keep pushing back and damaging the enemy, but it's usually more useful if I try building up to CP2.

Anyway, the problem here is that by the time the train reaches 1, it's easier for the attackers to just use the green paths and force the train through than to take the red path. This will change once red wises up and loads this area with sentries, though. Another problem is that it's very hard to build that room with the 1-way door because enemies can too easily loop through the back ramp and/or spam through the upper doorway. I want a protected area for my sentries if I'm going to build them. To do this you could move the upper door back on the building, which would reduce spam in the forward section. I might be wrong about where that door is, so maybe I'm thinking of spam coming through the window. Closing the window and making it transparent is another option, which would force the room to be used for building ubers. You could also remove the rear ramp/doorway and change it so they have to move through the corner building from that round rocky area. That would flow more naturally into that area and make it harder for defenders to get in.




This area is a real pain in the butt for trying to give advice. :) Once again, the spawn is so close to CP2 that there's absolutely no need for a forward base. Engineers are relegated to putting up sentries and dispensers for area denial rather than forward bases. Right now the most likely spot for me to build would be at #2 since it's pretty protected. To force people to use the building more, #3 still needs to be more risky. However, that's also a risk since it's such a long path of track. To keep it from getting too defensible, and to add some more height to the area, you could increase the building at #6. Making it a 2 story building where soldiers/snipers could overlook #3 would be fun.

The area by 4 will never get used because right now it's useless. It gets unlocked when CP2 gets passed. Unfortunately the direction of gameplay at that point switches in the complete opposite direction. Instead of trying to build that area, people will hug the near wall and push up through the rounded corner. This area would be far more useful if CP2 were pushed up the hill and that back hall always remained open. That would make it an ideal spot for the attackers to make a push at CP2. It needs some more protection by the entrance, which I'll cover next.

Right now #5 is a complete spam trap and perfect sniper target. You can simplify this area to get people to use that building more by removing that corner area and widening the side door. The lower inside section would need a little reworking as well. People avoid complicated areas of maps, so keeping it simple will make it more likely it'll get used. You still have 3 routes through and this would help protect the back hall some more, so it might be worth it.




This details the inside with some possible changes. You can see the spam trap area and the sniper up the hill with the perfect shot through both sides. It's a spam trap since it's an enclosed area lower than the surrounding area, with one or more easy spots to throw nades through. By expanding that yellow brush you protect the main path up. I'd recommend trying to add another stairway up in this area, even if it's just some boxes that can be jumped up on the other side. Spies will thank you. On the other side the entrance to that side hall is completely exposed to the hill. Adding some protection here would help. I'd also suggest removing one of the entrances, since it'll be easier for teams to spy check when building in there. The ledge is expanded as well, since right now a single demoman could put 2 stickies right at the corner and knock off any blu running through. By widening that ledge they can avoid that corner a bit and have some more protection.




This is the area I absolutely love, but there's no reason to use it right now. The spawn is right around the corner, so attackers only need to walk the green path to be to the same spot. A person is more likely to walk 8 seconds to get to the same point than to wait up to 10 seconds to teleport into a blind area. The single best solution I can recommend is moving that spawn to the room down the hill. To make that area with the 1-way gate more useful, you should narrow out the path under that overpass a bit. Remove the part by the rounded corner and narrow the track section, which will force people to go around. Another issue here is that I'm still far more likely to build where I circled, since defenders normally come through in this area. I don't see that as big of a deal though since once you get 2 engineers they'll spread out and build in both spots.




I won't mention changes at the end, since I love the changes you made. I'd possibly recommend a 1-way door on the new path behind there, which would allow a sentry to defend a teleporter exit in there. Putting the 1-way door right where the tunnel exits (in the room with the ramp going up and the health/metal in there) would be fun, since an engineer could build his sentry behind the door and open it when he wanted it to shoot at people. >:) The drawback (and there should be one) is that it's so narrow that he can't build it back, which means demomen can destroy it easily with stickies.

Overall I think the quantity of forward spawns is really hurting your map, but hopefully these changes will help. I'd make a single forward spawn, at the bottom of the hill between checkpoints 1 and 2. Or in the warehouse, which would obviously get it used more. Award that forward spawn once checkpoint 2 is reached, and move cp2 up to the top of the hill. Since the section between checkpoints 1 and 2 is the least played right now, expanding it out should give it more playtime compared to the other sections. It would also make engineers a commodity on offense, and make some good forward base areas that could stay between checkpoint captures.

I know I'm stuck on the whole forward spawn thing, but I hope this was still helpful. ;)
 

flubber

L4: Comfortable Member
Nov 16, 2007
171
35
Well that one is my favorite WIP map, so much hope in it. We tested the a10 yesterday on 12v12.
- First of all i think the train is bringing too much protection and is going a little too fast. Maybe remove the protective glass or close the engine part.
- Red spawn after CP1 is taken is way too far compare to the advanced blue spawn.
- The train got stuck here and there but especially on B point turn.
- The train should be block when red in front of it to force eventual blue inside to get out and kill them the same from above it should block the train when you're on it.
- Still don't like the last red spawn as i sayed earlier.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
Do you want suggestions for fixing detail work in areas you've done yet, or should we hold off? :) In the side "cave" near CP1, you can see completely around the wooden door frame which looks weird. The rocks sticking out of the walls in the first rock area (the circle with the large health/ammo) look odd as well. The ramp just outside RED's first spawn needs its outside edge fixed, cause it shifts right now.

I like a10 a lot better than a8. I'm still worried about those blue spawns, but right now I think red's are pretty good (you had mentioned moving it forward). I agree with reworking that side tunnel at the start of the map. I really like the new red building between CP1 and CP2. If I play engineer on defense I'd put my dispenser and teleporter exit there, so when BLU capped CP1 I'd be able to quickly get a base set up there.

Anyway, nice work so far. Hopefully we can get you more people on for a better test. :)