Cevo BANS the sandman

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
if you mess with the game mechanics through the use of a mod, I have no sympathy when a new update suddenly doesn't fit into your modified game <_<
 

A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
aa
Nov 2, 2007
4,775
7,669
When you start playing with scouts that can aim, they are amazingly OP.
When you start playing with _____ that can aim, they are amazingly OP.

See what I did there. You cannot claim skill when talking about things being overpowered. Something is only overpowered when someone of equal or less skill than the opponent can consistently defeat them.

Personally, I don't like the stun. I don't like things that remove player control no matter what the game. I think a far better option would have been to look back and the scout's roots. They had concussion grenades. Replace the stun with that effect (in a randomized way so people can't learn it like they did in TFC) and I think the bat would serve it's purpose while not completely debilitating the victim.
 

What Is Schwa

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 13, 2008
375
445
Ever hear of a sentry? Last I heard you can't bonk them.

Oh right... the answer is no, because pros don't use engineers...

So instead of adapting competitive play by using the hard counter to the scout, they ban a weapon to preserver the status quo.

Real pro. Real pro.

Edit: For the record, I don't like the sandman. But wow, this just reveals how sad the competitive scene is. They are so narrow minded they can't even remember the engineer exists.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
What? A scout can take out a sentry gun. Just circle strafe it. Not that hard.

Your missing the part about the scout aiming. The whole balance to the class was that his gun is hard to aim. He is fast, he can double jump, he has close range and medium long range weapon, he has as much health as the spy, sniper, engi, he has the smallest hit box, and he can kill a heavy in 2 point blank shots.

Where is the downside?

Maybe these 2 threads will help you.
Scout Update Review

Cevo > Sandman.

Protip: Chro is always right. Always.

Read these 2 threads and then come back. These cover all the key points in the argument.
 

cornontheCoD

L420: High Member
Mar 25, 2008
437
70
I just dont understand what valve was thinking when allowing ubers to be stunned. That is not the scout's playstyle (stopping ubers)
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
1,059
219
maybe its just me but i have lost all respect for any kind of competitive league after the crap ive heard...so...yeah...

and unless a sentry is places in a really stupid place where there are no remotely good players around and the scout can get close enough to circle it without dying then a scout can not circle strafe a sentry
 

What Is Schwa

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 13, 2008
375
445
What? A scout can take out a sentry gun. Just circle strafe it. Not that hard.
It is hard to take an argument seriously when you put out stuff like this. In an actual game the sentry is a hard counter to the scout. Again, we can invent all sorts of unlikely scenarios where the scout blows up sentries, kills seven engineers with only his bat and than caps the point, but the majority of the time this simply isn't the case.

At the end of the day, a scout can't bonk a sentry. If CEVO took itself seriously it would say to the players "well, maybe you dumbasses should try something other than two scouts, two soldier, a medic and a demo." There are other classes, and the bonk banning only demonstrates how the "pro" player base has decided this arbitrary setup is the only way to play TF2 and they want to preserve THAT status quo.

Not being able to adapt is a sign of a failed system.

The bonk is obnoxious, a shitty design decision, and generally un-fun. However, I would say the same about the competitive scene. The way they twist TF2 to suit their own means than turn around and say "you nubs don't understand, we know what we are doing" is laughable. As the heavy would say, cry some more.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
It is hard to take an argument seriously when you put out stuff like this. In an actual game the sentry is a hard counter to the scout. Again, we can invent all sorts of unlikely scenarios where the scout blows up sentries, kills seven engineers with only his bat and than caps the point, but the majority of the time this simply isn't the case.

At the end of the day, a scout can't bonk a sentry. If CEVO took itself seriously it would say to the players "well, maybe you dumbasses should try something other than two scouts, two soldier, a medic and a demo." There are other classes, and the bonk banning only demonstrates how the "pro" player base has decided this arbitrary setup is the only way to play TF2 and they want to preserve THAT status quo.

Not being able to adapt is a sign of a failed system.

The bonk is obnoxious, a shitty design decision, and generally un-fun. However, I would say the same about the competitive scene. The way they twist TF2 to suit their own means than turn around and say "you nubs don't understand, we know what we are doing" is laughable. As the heavy would say, cry some more.

Well, 1 you didn't read those threads did you? Why do you assume comp. play isn't fun. We make the changes we do to make the game more balanced, and there fore more fun.

Also, circle strafind is easy. You can do it all the time. You just need to learn how. You DJ above the sentry, go over it, crouch in front so the rockets go over your head, and then run around it. That easy. Try is some time. And with the FAN its even easier to get from cover to right next to it.


EDIT: And in TF2 there are no hard counters. There are counters that work most of the time, but still can be fought against.
 

Mar

Banned
Feb 12, 2009
607
63
maybe its just me but i have lost all respect for any kind of competitive league after the crap ive heard...so...yeah...

and unless a sentry is places in a really stupid place where there are no remotely good players around and the scout can get close enough to circle it without dying then a scout can not circle strafe a sentry

What made you lose respect of comp leagues?
 

Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
2,533
Sure, it's really friggin annoying to stopped mid-uber charge, but I didn't think it was really that op. *shrugs*
 

What Is Schwa

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 13, 2008
375
445
Well, 1 you didn't read those threads did you?
I'm more interested in what you have to say. Putting the the onus on me to parse your interpretation of other people's words is a lousy way to make it point.

...and really, you take out a level three sentry while crouch scooting circle strafing? I invite you to my server tomorrow, and if you can take out a level three sentry doing this I'll eat my own dick.

And if you counter "but in competitive play there is more opportunity for 1 v 1 fighting" you will be confirming everyone's point.

Competitive play isn't demonstrative of the depth TF2 has, it is a self-limiting subset of the game that doesn't have a bearing on TF2 in general. Because of this the complaints of the competitive scene are contrived and pointless.

Everyone here hates the bonk, including me. The fact that CEVO banned it is evidence that whatever the hell it is they do, it isn't playing TF2.
 

uma plata

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 20, 2009
294
93
The sandman is too easy to use effectively

This is the first unlock where a ban has even been discussed by leagues. They typically go along with most of the design decisions made by Valve, with the notable exceptions of crits and damage variance (both of which, amazingly, Valve later addressed. I'm sure the reason was completely unrelated to the requests of the competitive community though...)

It's easy to criticize competitive players, call them 'tourney tards', etc., but realize all they are striving for is a balanced game where skill is the deciding factor.

Class balance is good for everyone

It will be nerfed. It's only a matter of time
 

Ida

deer
aa
Jan 6, 2008
2,289
1,372
My two cents:

I think the Sandman is a little too powerful, but banning anything at all from a game is ridiculous in my opinion.

/my two cents.
 

Ravidge

Grand Vizier
aa
May 14, 2008
1,544
2,818
I like the concussion effect from TFC (that boojum also mentioned). It prevented almost all players from aiming straight but they could still defend themselves by moving away. Other (better) players figured out exactly how the concussion made your aim go and then they could estimate where the crosshair really was and fire in the general direction to cause some harm (but probably not kill). The Pro players mastered it and the concussion had minimal impact on their performance.

This system is very much like the stun, except that more skilled players can fight back and the scout doesnt win by default.
 

AWESOME-O

L10: Glamorous Member
Mar 20, 2008
779
132
Sandman removed, Good.
Its a great upgrade, but the downside on it seems to be to less.
Its just so fucking irritating that as heavy you frequently get stunned by the ball.
'Look over there, heavy in uber. Boom Ball, uber wasted'
Its a perfect weapon if it hadn't any effect on ubers.
But now its just OP (Unless they take down the uber time)
But its still ridicolous to ban a weapon from a game.
 
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Psy

The Imp Queen
aa
Apr 9, 2008
1,706
1,491
I find that the Sandman has rendered the heavy useless in sitations where he would usually win. :(
 

TheAnonymousMrP

L1: Registered
Oct 25, 2008
12
5
Half the time it affects ubers. Playtest some moar. Adjust times as necessary.

I can see the old conc effect, while perhaps preferable to the bonk, being outside of the TF2 spirit. When bonked, you know what's happening, there's no confusion. You're stunned, and you can see as much, whereas with the conc there might be enough "what the hell is going on" to undermine the accessibility they've gone for with TF2. Only my opinion, mind.

CEVO are just whining/acting unnecessarily. I hate the old 'l2adapt' thing, but it may very well apply here (albeit the sandman may edge on the side of OP).
 

TheDarkerSideofYourShadow

L10: Glamorous Member
Apr 12, 2008
792
286
I haven't actually played tf2 since the update, but some of the remarks here have been interesting, such as the comment "if I wanted a cheap stun and to be killed in 3 seconds, I'd play wow." The idea of a stun in an FPS is really weird. Maybe it should have been more of a daze or a concussion, like in tfc (think scout primary vs secondary nades). That way the receiving player would be disadvantaged, but not helpless.