Cevo BANS the sandman

[Hawk]

So far in my latest games the Sandman hasn't caused too much frustration. I mean, it sucks to get stunned, but it also sucks to get sniped or burned alive. Still, I really like the idea of melees deflecting the ball. It gives you a chance to prevent stunning, though it wouldn't be too easy because not many people run around with their melee weapon. Plus, it lends itself to some fun metagames.

I wonder if a good alternative to the stunning my be allowing the player to maintain control, but blurring their perception. You know, sort of like when a boomer barfs on you in Left 4 Dead, or a grenade goes off near you in one of those Call of Duty games.

I'm sure Valve will find the right balance. I wouldn't be surprised if they shortened the stun time in an upcoming update.

 

[Sel]

Mechanics that completely remove player control (such as stuns) have no place in skill vs skill games, period. I can completely understand why a "pro" group would remove such an ability from their matches.

Yeah this.

Sandman is a joke, scouts are not a long range class, and should not be able to stun people for 10 seconds across the map leaving them open to snipers, and anything else that can fire at that distance regardless of whether the scout can reach them and bonk them a few times.

There's also the issue where heavies are completely useless, and even this early, only about a week after the scout update it seems that every scout is able to hit me from across the map with the baseball and stun me for a ridiculously long time.

The ability to stun invincible enemies is also dumb, as it completely removes the invincible aspect of invincibility as you can be stunned for the duration of the entire uber.

I'm sure Valve will find the right balance. I wouldn't be surprised if they shortened the stun time in an upcoming update.

I agree, valve is very good at balancing everything out, and they are also aware that they may need to remove and replace certain things to improve gameplay.

Either way it may have been an ok idea in theory, and testing the sandman's effects on gameplay may have been fairly difficult before they released the update.

 

[Mar]

My two cents:

I think the Sandman is a little too powerful, but banning anything at all from a game is ridiculous in my opinion.

/my two cents.

So if Valve revealed a tenth class that is a flying sentriy gun that shoots nothing but crit rockets and has an aimbot sniper rifle attached to it, banning it would be ridiculous?

 

[Mar]

I'm more interested in what you have to say. Putting the the onus on me to parse your interpretation of other people's words is a lousy way to make it point.

...and really, you take out a level three sentry while crouch scooting circle strafing? I invite you to my server tomorrow, and if you can take out a level three sentry doing this I'll eat my own dick.

And if you counter "but in competitive play there is more opportunity for 1 v 1 fighting" you will be confirming every one's point.

Competitive play isn't demonstrative of the depth TF2 has, it is a self-limiting subset of the game that doesn't have a bearing on TF2 in general. Because of this the complaints of the competitive scene are contrived and pointless.

Everyone here hates the bonk, including me. The fact that CEVO banned it is evidence that whatever the hell it is they do, it isn't playing TF2.

The reason I wanted you to read the thread is becuase, instead of having to bring you guys up to speed, you could figure out on your own why it is OP. Since most people here don't seem to understand the comp scene, I thought this would help out.

And comp play is demonstrating the depth of TF2! The reason engis, spies, and pyros are under used is because WE HAVE ALREADY TRIED THEM! They don't work! THEY ARE TOO WEAK! Why can't you people get that. We don't use these classes on a common basis becuase we already have experimented and they didn't work out.

The reason Valve does these updates is becuase the bring more sales. But that doesn't been the do the most balanced thing. They just want to bring new people in.

Just wait in a week or 2 when Valve nerfs the sandman, you'll be eating your words.

PROTIP: Last time the comp scene made a big clamour, was with the no-crits setting, and TFTrue. But look at it. Valve made it an official thing to gain back control off there game.

 

[Mar]

Class balance is good for everyone

This is true. The comp scene is just trying to make a more balanced game so that it is more fun to play.

If valve released the aimbot class, that wouldn't be fun to play against would it?

Make a really good game for the pros, and the goodness will trickle down to the pubs.

Look at Quake Weapons Factory. That game was released into the hands of the players. There was no valve updating it, the players controlled the game, which lead to it being extremely balanced and fun.

 

[Mar]

Also, some explain to me how a melee weapon that has a ranged attack is balanced.

 

[Agentkid]

So if Valve revealed a tenth class that is a flying sentriy gun that shoots nothing but crit rockets and has an aimbot sniper rifle attached to it, banning it would be ridiculous?

Flying engie
No but the sandman is too unbalanced against ubers
Then i never get a charge to begin with because i am running from like 7 scouts in a 24 man server. Come on your team doesnt need that many scouts

 

[Mar]

Flying engie
No but the sandman is too unbalanced against ubers
Then i never get a charge to begin with because i am running from like 7 scouts in a 24 man server. Come on your team doesnt need that many scouts

You should play on a server with a class limit.

 

[MrAlBobo]

So if Valve revealed a tenth class that is a flying sentriy gun that shoots nothing but crit rockets and has an aimbot sniper rifle attached to it, banning it would be ridiculous?

Sigh...please stop wasting time by posting this kind of crap

Just wait in a week or 2 when Valve nerfs the sandman, you'll be eating your words.

Not a single person thinks that this isn't going to happen, the majority of people simply don't think some tiny segment of people who like to play a altered meta-game have any right to say whether or not a weapon should be banned. Then I don't really see why we should even care, other then you shoving it into our face.

This is true. The comp scene is just trying to make a more balanced game so that it is more fun to play.

You know what is fun? Randomness.

If valve released the aimbot class, that wouldn't be fun to play against would it?

Sigh...

 

[Shmitz]

The reason I wanted you to read the thread is becuase, instead of having to bring you guys up to speed, you could figure out on your own why it is OP.

That's not "figuring it out on your own", that's letting other people tell you what to think. The only way to figure it out on your own is to play the game.

We don't use these classes on a common basis becuase we already have experimented and they didn't work out.

In a 6 vs 6 setting, which, as has already been pointed out many times already, is not what the game is designed and balanced for.

Just wait in a week or 2 when Valve nerfs the sandman, you'll be eating your words.

Nobody will be eating their words because nobody is arguing that the sandman is perfect in every way. That isn't the issue. What's being argued is whether people should dislike the sandman because it sours their personal game experience, or because some group of self-proclaimed "pros" tells them they should dislike it.

If and when Valve nerfs the sandman, it'll be because it's the sensible thing to do, not because of some imagined pressure from CEVO.

PROTIP: whatever

It's hard to take anything seriously that has to be labeled as "protip" because it doesn't stand on its own as a convincing statement. Also, see my previous comment.

 

[MrAlBobo]

It's hard to take anything seriously that has to be labeled as "protip" because it doesn't stand on its own as a convincing statement. Also, see my previous comment.

/\ This, I forgot to say this in my post, but every time I see protip and you are not quoting someone who is...you know, worthy of being called a pro, it just serves to prove just how much you are absolutely not a pro.

 

[Mar]

Well you guys definetly posted tons of evidence. Why are you calling people that truely understand the mechaincs of this game,

"some tiny segment of people who like to play a altered meta-game."

Competive players are what keep a game alive. Look at CS 1.6 and Starcraft. Both games have been out for a decade and both have been kept very much alive due to the competive community surronding them.

"In a 6 vs 6 setting, which, as has already been pointed out many times already, is not what the game is designed and balanced for."

Acutally, this is how the game was meant to be played. Any more then 6v6 and you're reyling less on skill and more on spam. Why do think this is the most popular number. It's the most popular BECAUSE IT WORKS! That's the same reason why we use 2 soldis, 1 demo, 1 medic, and 2 scouts. BECAUSE IT WORKS!

And to add to that, on the Xbox the player limit was 12 people, so 6v6, but the xbox got 1 update which changed that cap to 16 so people could 8v8.

 

[MrAlBobo]

sure, years from now when everyone else have moved on to a newer better game then ill believe your right

if the game was meant to be played in 6 vs 6 then please explain why the origional maps were all designed for 24 players, tf2 is meant to have a randomness factor, deal.
I happen to think that you play 6 vs 6 for the same reason you remove crits and weapons you don't like from the game. Because someone whined and bitched about being killed "unfairly"

And please, do not even use the xbox version as an example...its a joke

 

[Mar]

Crits where a gimmick to get people hooked to the game and to bring in their friends, which would mean more money for Valve.

A friend would play TF2 and get good, and then invite him over to play, or give him a 3 day guest pass. If TF2 had now crits the newb would have no chance fighting against his experienced friend, and he would quit the game from frustration.

With crits on he would get a random crit rocket that would let him kill his friend, and the newb would have fun and by the full version of the game giving Valve their money.

The crit is a random chance hit that allows newbs to kill good players, and have fun with the game. But once everyone is into the game, and skillful, the crit is a random chance kill that took no skill at all. When you are trying to play competitively you want it to be a representation of skill. Not random luck. So to make comp play more FUN and more FAIR, we asked for no crits and Valve gave us no crits.

PS. I played on it, it is not a joke. People there are just as serious as they are here. And they only way 95% of people could kill me is with crits.

PSS. The comp scene is huge.

PSSS. People can move one to a different game. People moved from Halo 1, to 2, to 3, not becuase each subsequent version is better, but becuase each version has bad, not balanced, and was just a brief burst of fun. People also move onto different games becuase of hype.


Oh, and if you didn't get it, randomness if there so newbs can have fun and encourage their friends to buy the game which = more sales for valve.

 

[Mar]

Oh, and why don't you go on gotfrag forums or EFT2L and argue how the comp scene is stupid over there.

You know why you won't go there. Becuase you know you will lose since the really, really competitve sponosed guys (who still have fun) have an even better arguement on why 6v6 is the way to go.

 

[Nineaxis]

No, it's just that we don't go and pick stupid fights. The people in the competitive league forums are there because they like that. Good for them. I might not, but I'm not going to be moron and burst in yelling that competitive sucks.

Seriously Mar, shut up already. TF2 has nine classes for a reason, is stock with crits and twenty-four players for a reason, and is mapped for with those two parameters in mind for a reason. Most players are not competitive, and you don't need to plow every thread in this forum spewing out bad rationalisations for why everyone should play competitively and map for the competitive scene and ignore the fact that 90% of TF2 players play for fun, and that mappers need to accommodate that.

I like to play engineer on a stock TF2 server with a full 24 players, complete with crits and sentry guns and sandmans, whether or not you do or the competitive scene does. So as far as I'm concerned, you're really just being an ***hole right now by saying we're idiots for not playing one of four classes in 6v6 servers.

 

[MrAlBobo]

this is what I really do not understand, you do not seem to realize people enjoy some kind of random aspects to their game

I am not arguing that comp is stupid, by this point and for the almost the entire argument I have been doing nothing but dissecting your points and bringing up the flaws in you logic

I personally think that if some people want to play a variation of a game then more power to them, its just when people with too much free time feel the need to use flawed arguments to try and prove that their version is better then everyone else's that irritates me.

Bring some of them over here and have them read some of the things you have said...I happen to think that most comp players would be inclined to be rational.

 

[TMP]

PSS. The comp scene is huge.

The casual moreso.

I play it because it is fun. Not because of skill; That is why I left the RTS biz. The randomness of the crits give an excitement when I kill someone and an anger of when I am killed.

I don't really care what CEVO does, but when you start trying to enforce your views upon people like me in such a manner, I take it personally. I don't care if sandman is unbalanced; It gives me a sense of rush when I am hit by it. It is such things that I like about TF2, that I can be doing epic one minute and suck the next.

 

[Mar]

No, it's just that we don't go and pick stupid fights. The people in the competitive league forums are there because they like that. Good for them. I might not, but I'm not going to be moron and burst in yelling that competitive sucks.

Seriously Mar, shut up already. TF2 has nine classes for a reason, is stock with crits and twenty-four players for a reason, and is mapped for with those two parameters in mind for a reason. Most players are not competitive, and you don't need to plow every thread in this forum spewing out bad rationalisations for why everyone should play competitively and map for the competitive scene and ignore the fact that 90% of TF2 players play for fun, and that mappers need to accommodate that.

I like to play engineer on a stock TF2 server with a full 24 players, complete with crits and sentry guns and sandmans, whether or not you do or the competitive scene does. So as far as I'm concerned, you're really just being an ***hole right now by saying we're idiots for not playing one of four classes in 6v6 servers.

I'm not calling you idiots for not playing it. You guys are calling me an idoit for playing it and I am defending why I am not an idoit.

 

[Nineaxis]

I am NOT calling you an idiot, I'm saying you need to learn to shut up at some point.