RD asteroid

s0da72

L2: Junior Member
Jan 11, 2013
74
32
I played for about 20 minutes. As people have already mentioned I did not understand the objects of the map. At first I thought it was a tower defense type game mode. But after a while I realized there were no tower's, nor any upgrades available like you would normally see in a tower defense game. When I entered the game I focused killing on the robots since it seemed like the natural thing to do (even though I had no clue what was going on). Enemy players seems to come along either alone or in groups of two for the most part probably because they didn't know what was going on either. However after a while I started hunting enemy players which was apparently the wrong thing to do. Now that some people have posted what you are suppose to do, I'll give another crack at it today and see if it grows on me.
 

DonutVikingChap

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 15, 2013
233
139
I feel like the map is fun but simply way too long and narrow for any interesting teamplay to happen.

People are always spread out over the entire map because it's so long, so you never get a wave of teammates pushing into the enemy base at once, which is pretty much required if you're gonna penetrate their defense due to how narrow the map is (especially if they have a sentry gun, see: Dustbowl).

Just looking at the map overview it basically looks like a huge single path. I'd like to see a more widened layout with better flanking routes and more than one main entrance to the base - so that it doesn't essentially become 2Fort like some people have pointed out that it already feels like.

Other than that, the gamemode is really interesting and could probably be pretty fun with some tweaking like what other people have mentioned.
 

xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
531
Didn't we decide built-in teleporters were a bad gimmick and lazy design in, like, 2008 ?

I don't think it's there as a permanent feature, my feeling is it's a silent admission that the map is too big and the teleporter was tossed in as a way to get people to the no-man's-land quickly and see how it effects play.

Because the map really is too big. I admire Valve's attempt to give a map a billion access routes to every location, but TF2 does not function well as a maze.

They'd probably do better if they moved to more of a 5CP sized layout, give each base two distinctive fighting areas and a fifth neutral zone between the bases.
 

Ælement

Comfortably mediocre
aa
Dec 21, 2010
1,481
1,616
I don't really get why they start doing semi-fancy lighting before clipping stairs. There's a lot of stairs, and there's no reason to give people on top of them an even bigger combat advantage than height, by it's very nature, already gives you.

The pickup placements were god-awful and needed visual indicators.

Needs a bit of directional signage.

I don't like mid. I'll have to process it a bit before i can give constructive feedback on it tho.

There's so many routes that it's impossible to feel in control of the map, unless you control the quite unfun mid.

I like the gimmick with the lasers guarding the power core. I like killing robots. I like the floating debris.
I don't like crouch-only vents. I don't like narrow corridors.

I may be an odd end, but i think i understood the objective within 7 mins.

It needs a lot of work. And i need to think a lot to work this into some useful criticism.
 
Last edited:

EArkham

Necromancer
aa
Aug 14, 2009
1,625
2,774
Pretty sure the lighting is in lieu of team-coloured textures to give some sense of orientation.
 

SSX

aa
Feb 2, 2014
392
411
I still don't understand the objectives. Someone please help meeeeee

Shoot robots in enemy base, take their cores after you've killed them. Move onto next area of robots killing them in area A, so on through B and C. After C has been cleared, robot's reset.

How is it people are so confused by this? The announcer clearly states the objective.
 

xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
531
Shoot robots in enemy base, take their cores after you've killed them. Move onto next area of robots killing them in area A, so on through B and C. After C has been cleared, robot's reset.

How is it people are so confused by this? The announcer clearly states the objective.

Yes, but how does that help me to stand on the battlements and get in sniper fights for several hours? Isn't that the point of all TF2 maps that have bridges in the middle?
 

evanonline

L420: High Member
Mar 15, 2009
485
273
The map is absolutely baffling at first, it took me a good 15 minutes to really figure it out. But once you get it, it's really fun.

I think this really needs an instructional video like every map up to Badwater Basin had. There's a lot of intricacies like the tiering of the robots and the extra passages that open and close as you've killed robots that really need to be known by players that would be very easy to illustrate by just showing the players these things in advance. As it stands you have to run around a whole lot to figure things out and while the map plays fine once you know it, the lengths to which a player must go to understand what they're doing doesn't say "good design" to me.

Layout-wise, I think the bases will be fine once there's some texturing and directional arrows, but I would rework mid and the 2fort sewer equivalents with the big asteroid holes. Those underground passages feel so big and empty and useless.
 
Mar 23, 2010
1,872
1,696
the routes opening and closing feels really unnecessary with how chokey A is and its definitely annoying when A respawns and it closes on you :<
 

Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
aa
Nov 14, 2009
4,696
2,580
I got that you get points for collecting the little cores from the robots you destroy, and that there are stages of sorts. But then what's the big reactor core for? At first I thought it was what you had to do to progress to the next wave, but based on monitoring the HUD during today's sessions, it looks more like it's a Golden Snitch type thing where it's worth more points than just killing robots. And if that's true... I'm sorry, it was bad game design when J.K. Rowling came up with it and it's bad game design here. TF2 has never been about point-based wins anyway; it's always been about instant-win conditions, even if it requires multiple steps to achieve them. Capture all the points. Grab all the briefcases. Push the cart all the way to the end. Put the fuel in the rocket. Destroy all the robots. Which would have been the most logical win condition for this map as well.

To be honest, it's not just the complexity that irks me. MvM has a lot to learn ahead of time, but it works because it's treated as a whole different game compared to standard TF2. Its premise was that the status quo as we know it has been changed forever, and you're not expected to start playing it before reading up on how it works. And yet it still makes more sense to someone going into it blind than this map does. We still don't know what the premise of this map is supposed to be, but somehow I doubt it involves some huge shakeup in continuity.

I also don't understand the need to split the robots between three areas CSF style. To be honest, I never really saw the point of CSF in the first place, but at least most CSF maps I've seen did a good job of keeping the bases from being too big and spread out.
 

xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
531
I don't see why TF2's lack of point based wins means it can never have it. Valve is constantly trying out new ideas in the game, doing dumb stuff and seeing what sticks.

Splitting up the bots into three tiers is an attempt to reward teams with bigger reward for pushing further into the enemy base.. you can win a heck of a lot faster if you push to the core than if you just skirmish around the front door.
 

Bakscratch

Finisher of Maps
aa
Oct 29, 2010
714
1,493
The one thing that gets me about this map design, it feels like there is no combat ever happening. I played it on a 32 player server, it all felt empty I could never find anyone to kill it seemed. Cool if we could have the heatmap stuff on it, so I can see where things are happening. would be nice but I doubt it.
 

obsidiian

L1: Registered
Jul 6, 2013
40
5
Shoot robots in enemy base, take their cores after you've killed them. Move onto next area of robots killing them in area A, so on through B and C. After C has been cleared, robot's reset.

How is it people are so confused by this? The announcer clearly states the objective.

But people are mentioning things about raiding vaults and stealing intel and I've just got no idea what they're talking about.
 

xzzy

aa
Jan 30, 2010
815
531
But people are mentioning things about raiding vaults and stealing intel and I've just got no idea what they're talking about.

In the back end of each base is an intel-like room that is in theory difficult for enemies to access and is thus the "vault." Once they get in there, they pick up "intel" and the longer they stand on the point the more "intel" they capture. It's called the reactor core.

Players then try to deliver the "intel" to their own vault. If they die, they drop the reactor core exactly as if they dropped the intel in a CTF game.
 

evanonline

L420: High Member
Mar 15, 2009
485
273
Further impressions: A can straight-up just be locked down by a single sentry, it needs another passage around because as it stands it's frustrating. I thought the map was pretty cool but once people realized "oh, we have to turtle farther up ahead on this map" it all fell apart.

B and C are different, because for one you have multiple access points, and while they can still be held down by Engineers it doesn't feel like you get blindsided by sentries like in A, plus you can slowly chip away at the A robots for points. Being able to lock down A completely just ruins the map.
 

SSX

aa
Feb 2, 2014
392
411
I think the idea of the map size is to allow for players to go off on their own without major combat all over the place. Because think about it a bit, the reason for the Flag in CTF being at the very back of the base is so the team would need to be together to go and push back the defenders and grab it.

Same goes for CP maps, you normally narrow it to 3 routes that all connect back into one larger area, which is normally where the team defends the most.

KOTH maps are built so you have to defend at mid most of the time.

But with this game mode, you need those larger areas to allow for more free-flowing combat so the robots can be destroyed, and the game actually plays out instead of just making the entire area get locked down by a single class, which granted the engi can do already; but at least allows for other classes such as scout, soldier, spy, and demo to be more effective in the point grabs.

If you were to work more as a team, it also still functions to where the game would end much quicker. But if you're in the mood for a long game time, it's a slow process of sending in the troops to take on the problems for you. These are the classes I've come up with for this type of gamemode broken down into a 16 player team setup.

Attackers:
Scouts: At least 2. These guys will be the ones you send in for the purpose of grabbing the cores early game, and collecting points for the team. They will tend to change position to grabbing the battery to get points back near the end or middle of the game.

Soldiers: 2-3. At least 1 shotgun, 1 Buff Banner, and 1 Backup/Concherer. They'll provide sentry destruction backup for the scouts allowing the scouts to grab the cores or battery depending on the situation.

Spies: Really only need 1. Anything really goes with this class, only goals I'd set with him is taking sentries down in the absence of soldiers and getting the battery out into open area for the scouts to grab the battery easier.

Demomen: 1 or 2, depending on issues. Quick, hard to reach sentry placements destroyers. Only when the soldier can't hit the sentry gun, or when the there's no soldiers to attack a sentry gun with.

Medic: Only 1. Either the Quick-Fix or Vaccinator medigun. (Maybe Kritzkreig) These are practically built for taking on small waves of enemies and can lay quick work to a sentry gun's bullets if given enough room.

Defenders:
Heavy: Only 1. Used to lock down closer combat upper areas, to prevent players sneaking around above the team's head.

Medic: 2 needed. Heal teammates, the usual. Preferably default medigun, Vacc, or Quick-Fix. Whatever one works the best in your favor.

Engineer: Preferably 2, no more than 3. Defend the areas, keep the enemies out of your base and keep them from stealing your batteries/cores. Best setup possibly would be to have at least 1 sentry gun in the back, and 1 in the middle room with the water on the balcony with a wrangler.

Pyro: 2 or 3. Keep the close combat in the transition rooms for you to get the best effect (obviously...) on enemy players. Try to keep at least one in the cave area of the base .

Sniper: Only 1. Good sightlines in B's area for you to kill oncoming attackers from a distance, use to your advantage.

I know people are gonna disagree with this, but me and my friend's tried this earlier, and it worked fantastically over the course of 7 games. It was almost always a nice paced game, and wasn't over too quickly, but wasn't too slow either. I know in pubs this probably won't work. But in terms of actual cooperation, it works great.
 

Geit

&#128156; I probably broke it &#128156;
aa
May 28, 2009
598
1,161
The one thing that gets me about this map design, it feels like there is no combat ever happening. I played it on a 32 player server, it all felt empty I could never find anyone to kill it seemed. Cool if we could have the heatmap stuff on it, so I can see where things are happening. would be nice but I doubt it.
Quickly put together some heatmaps - they aren't perfect, and they're ever so slightly off as I didn't have the original values for the overview, but you get the gist.

This is a killer heatmap. (If you look, you can see the OP sentry points on the balcony at A)
2efe.png



This is a victim heatmap:
1w3d.png
 
Last edited: