CTF Arenagate

[LeSwordfish]

The buff system sounds like it rewards teamplay and punishes lone offensive action. Which would be great, if TF2 wasn't already designed with that in mind. But yeah, more details please.

 

[friagram]

The buffs are invisibility - toggles alpha on the player/wearables, regeneration - 40 hp/sec, and quaddamage. Since there's no way to grant crits or any buffs without sourcemod (that I could find), it just parents a moderate sized trigger hurt that pulses a decent damage aura that damages enemy players and buildings on the enemy team.

All buffs are neutral invade flags with swapped models and particle effects. Dropping the flag will display the timer with the duration that the buff has left on the timer - 30 seconds is their maximum possible duration. Because it's a flag, you can't get ubered with it, which counters players being too powerful with the buff, and also prevents them from carrying the flag out of the base while under the effect of a powerup.

Capturing the invade flag does nothing, it just removes the powerup effect and despawns it.

Players are encouraged to make use of the powerups to overcome base defenses, and to retrieve their flag to secure a capture. Controling the center of the map then grants teams a better advantage overall than turtling a base, so the whole engineer problem is essentially a nonissue.

In a way it's hybrid KOTH, as fighting over the buff will occur often if played correctly, as properly controling the the buffs and center can almost guarantee a capture, and snowball criticals, and more captures, and allow you to clean out the enemy base.

As for scaling the textures down to .25, there are issues with that as well. Old games often use 256 or 128 resolution textures. Tiling them may reduce pixellation, but it will create obvious tiling patterns, and line effects when viewed from a distance. I did this with the ground texture and it is obvious when viewed from up high in the screen shots, although no terribly visible when in game.

As far as the other textures go, they are true to the original... and the original had many texture flaws and low resolution. In many ways this was an experimentation, and a fun/tribute map.

It's also the first map that I have ever created, so there are bound to be a bunch of problems.. It's also still beta so, there's work that can be done I'm sure.

 

[Seba]

Then why bother mapping for TF2?

Why does this not have like 25 thanks

Also friagram is obviously not going to change anything about this map, so might as well stop posting.

Here's some feedback that pretty much everyone here agrees on: textures are too grainy and in general don't fit in TF2, and the gameplay is like the current weapon system in TF2: just add more crap instead of fixing the broken things.

 

[friagram]

Why does this not have like 25 thanks

Also friagram is obviously not going to change anything about this map, so might as well stop posting.

Here's some feedback that pretty much everyone here agrees on: textures are too grainy and in general don't fit in TF2, and the gameplay is like the current weapon system in TF2: just add more crap instead of fixing the broken things.

I can fix things, but actual useful feedback would be of more use.
Which textures are of most concern?

I will probably be replacing the ones on the ground in the courtyard/base as they tile poorly. As far as "broken things that need fixing" What exactly is broken that needs fixing now?

I have this map running on several servers and have been getting feedback from people who actually-play-the-map, not armchair generals that sit and speculate with their pipes in would-be smoke filled rooms on the internets.

Does not appear that anyone who has posted a critique here has even downloaded the map or tried it, just looked at the thumbnails. How can you test gameplay like that?

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Gameplay wise on full servers you will have an issue with stalemates, more so than 2Fort does. When you have a spawn exit right next to the capture area (along with full Ammo and an alcove ... It is an engineers dream), that will be a sentry magnet, you will probably see 2-3 sentries there if this was tested. These sentry spots are even worse than 2forts (this includes the back stairs to the tunnels where there is a little alcove with a med health, that will be a sentry/teleport magnet too.

Also, you have no good flank routes. You have 3 entry ways into the cathedral, they instantly all go to a choke point then to a branch which goes back into the main area that will be a sentry hive (see above)

Finally, you have the flags down inside a little tunnel of sorts. This means that the flag capper needs to go forward, get the flag and then do a complete 180 and come back where (s)he came from. It is a commonly overlooked thing. This is worse than what 2Fort does, where they make you turn ~150 degrees or so to go out the second exit (which you don't even have) ... Double cross does this best by allowing the capper to run in and out without barely turning.


Now for artstyle: this is a TF2 Map, not a quake map. I personally hate the quake textures inherently (I like the tourney plan color ones they use). Quake artstyle is dark, gritty, grungey, blood-all-over-the-walls, make you feel uncomfortable, realistic style.... Where as My little pony is the Polar (pony?) opposite of this... Pastel colors, flat color, happy, magical, pretty, cutie, make-you-go-awwwwwwwwww, style. Mixing the two together is absolutely wrong. If anything, the MLP:FiM is closer to TF2 artstyle than quake is.

I did download it, I did run through it. I know what I'm talking about, I didn't need to test it with people to see the extremely obvious flaws.


And for the bonus system, You're just adding a confusing mechanic without understanding what happens when you shift gameplay, and add these types of things willy-nilly. 1) You need to somehow show players that they need to get the neutral flag for a powerup. You won't be at everytest, so you can't tell people about it. ALSO 2) CTF itself is an easy mechanic, but to make a fun CTF map, you need to really understand what happens in the game, and how it flows. You do not show this understanding.

Now, if you would like to make a fun map, listen to our feedback. We are giving it to you, you just need to get off your arm chair, put out your pipe and listen and understand that we know more than you about this... Besides, smoking is bad for you.

 

[friagram]

I did download it, I did run through it. I know what I'm talking about, I didn't need to test it with people to see the extremely obvious flaws.


And for the bonus system, You're just adding a confusing mechanic without understanding what happens when you shift gameplay, and add these types of things willy-nilly. 1) You need to somehow show players that they need to get the neutral flag for a powerup. You won't be at everytest, so you can't tell people about it. ALSO 2) CTF itself is an easy mechanic, but to make a fun CTF map, you need to really understand what happens in the game, and how it flows. You do not show this understanding.

Now, if you would like to make a fun map, listen to our feedback. We are giving it to you, you just need to get off your arm chair, put out your pipe and listen and understand that we know more than you about this... Besides, smoking is bad for you.

It does tell you about it if you bother to read the game info @ the start, though i suppose you just pressed OK like 99% of tf2players

 

[Freyja]

It does tell you about it if you bother to read the game info @ the start, though i suppose you just pressed OK like 99% of tf2players

Yes, and thus you should assume that 99% of the players of your map won't read it, so making it required information isn't the best idea.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

It does tell you about it if you bother to read the game info @ the start, though i suppose you just pressed OK like 99% of tf2players

You're right, I'm part of the 99%. #OccupyPonyVille #OccupyArenaGate

But you know, that tells you something. No one reads that. EVER. With proper game developement, if you are going to use new mechanics, you need to assume that the player isn't going to read/see instructions on a load-up page that they usually skip through. You need to show in-game somehow how the buffs work... Sound bites, arrows, SOMETHING... Assuming that players are going to understand a game mechanic inherently without being "taught" will cause games/maps/etc to die very very quickly, especially if that mechanic is key to winning.

 

[friagram]

I will add some info text notifiers when they are spawning or something to get player's attention
as for the textures... Some of this can be fixed with lighting

 

[Vincent]

as for the textures... Some of this can be fixed with lighting

Hahahahahaha. That isn't going to fix the terrible quake textures. Have you set the scale to .7, like someone mentioned you should.

Actually even then they'd still look bad.

 

[friagram]

Hahahahahaha. That isn't going to fix the terrible quake textures. Have you set the scale to .7, like someone mentioned you should.

Actually even then they'd still look bad.

Setting the scale higher makes it look even more pixelated
.7 = 70%
1 = 100%
2 = 200%

I know, math can be difficult.

Default is .25 in source.
And again, I stated that this would cause tiling issues, and textures such as skull doorways and textures which have non tiling textures can't simply be scaled in such a manner. And no, you can't just "blow them up in photoshop" - no manner of filters will fix them. Honestly I don't understand what all the complaint about the textures is, sure there are some that need work, and they can be mended, but again, it's supposed to have the nostalgic look of a specific type of game. If I wanted tf2 lookalike map and gameplay, I would have included that in the design.

 

[TheKieranator]

If I wanted tf2 lookalike map and gameplay, I would have included that in the design.

Then why are you here?

 

[LeSwordfish]

Then why are you here?

To insult us, obviously.

And which textures do i have a problem with? Well, the stained-glass window looks nice. So all of the others but that.

 

[grazr]

...Honestly I don't understand what all the complaint about the textures is, sure there are some that need work, and they can be mended, but again, it's supposed to have the nostalgic look of a specific type of game. If I wanted tf2 lookalike map and gameplay, I would have included that in the design.

I think you've missed the point of a port or at least how to execute one properly. A port for the sake of a port, IE a port that is 100% true to the original will not look good or play good in a completely different game. Yes, the nostalgia factor has a novel value, but no, that will not make your map good.

Porting maps 101: creating an exact replica of an environment from one game, in another, will not result in good gameplay. The the gameplay mechanics will often be completely different. Halo isn't a class based game, it has weapon pickups and vehicles. TF2 has a 1.5x scale ratio, damage falloff and medics.

Porting a map requires compromise. This is why badlands is infinitely better gameplay wise than dustbowl or 2fort. Dustbowl and 2fort are near faithful replica's and both have terrible balance issues.

Secondly, if you're going to port a map into TF2 and ignore the art style what's the point in porting it to TF2 at all.

TF2 has an artstyle that compliments certain gameplay elements such as class/team/weapon recognition. Messing with the art style destroys gameplay and breaks immersion. Especially if you're stubborn enough to replicate the scale and/or lighting conditions.

People will still appreciate a port that isn't 100% faithful, badlands is one of the most popular 5CP maps in TF2, people make the connection that it is a TFC map and enjoy the map even though it doesn't look like TFC or play like TFC. No one will appreciate the fact that your map looks like someone took a shit and threw up on it or the fact that it's supposed to look like that.

Your map is adequately constructed but poorly designed. People wont play your map just because it looks like Quake, it has to play well to sustain a population of players; and a map that doesn't get played in TF2, that looks like Quake, might as well have been made in quake. Kinda makes things a bit redundant, don't you think.

Nobody here is knocking your effort or skill, they're just trying to get across the fact that there are better ways to approach making a port and have it be successful than to toss all creativity to the wind and make a clone.

 

[Vincent]

Setting the scale higher makes it look even more pixelated
.7 = 70%
1 = 100%
2 = 200%

I know, math can be difficult.

Default is .25 in source.
And again, I stated that this would cause tiling issues, and textures such as skull doorways and textures which have non tiling textures can't simply be scaled in such a manner. And no, you can't just "blow them up in photoshop" - no manner of filters will fix them. Honestly I don't understand what all the complaint about the textures is, sure there are some that need work, and they can be mended, but again, it's supposed to have the nostalgic look of a specific type of game. If I wanted tf2 lookalike map and gameplay, I would have included that in the design.

Insult my math all you want that doesn't make your insults any less shit. We get a lot of people like you that stroll into this place and refuse to take constructive criticism because they believe their map is perfect and anything negative we may have to say about it is just blasphemy. At this point you just simply look like a dick and if you take the time to read Grazr's post right above this one you might learn something.

 

[English Mobster]

You MIGHT be able to get away with that in GameBanana, but not here. Here we strive to make Valve-quality maps, and most of the maps that make it official HAVE, in fact, come from this forum. Most of the original maps you see in competitive servers can also trace their roots back to here as well.

Don't brush us off as a bunch of dumbasses trying to insult your map. We're telling you that this isn't what the site is about (striving towards a Valve-like quality of TF2 maps). Even if it's your first map, having it LOOK like TF2 is a HUGE step.

We're here to help you improve your maps that were designed for TF2 (or, if they were inspired or designed for another game, as my first map was, help you improve a map with TF2's artstyle and tweaks to compensate for TF2's gameplay, and even then it's iffy). If you just want to get your map exposure, go to Gamebanana, You are, quite frankly, not wanted here. But if you're serious about mapping for TF2 and NOT Quake or whatever, stay, shape up, quit being such an arrogant prick, and make your maps at least LOOK like they were meant for TF2.

I apologize if I sound harsh, but you have not listened to us after 4 pages and it's evident that playing coy and being nice won't get it through your thick skull. An attitude isn't going to help your cause, either.

 

[grazr]

That's throwing a bit of a chip on TF2m's shoulder, Mobster. We can be fairly elitist but that's going a bit overboard (plus i'm pretty sure most of the original custom content was 2F2F affiliated as opposed to TF2m, since TF2m has always been more of a learning resource). So long as people are civil they are welcome here. But it should be made apparent, if you read the forum rules/stickies before posting a new map, that this community will jump onto unconventional projects like "orange"/"trade" maps or faithful ports with extreme critisism. It's expected that anyone here is here to learn and improve more than publicise.

I think it's pretty obvious this guy has no intention of this map making it into TF2 as official content, it's clear it's a more personal project than that so being so completely critical is unnecassery, but i do think there is value in it for friagram if he conforms a little more with TF2 for the sake of his maps popularity. You might consider it selling out, but what's the point of a map that never gets played.

We don't expect every map to be Valve standard, but we will try to make a map as good as it can be if the author allows it; and our members will sure as hell hassle you over the matter as they take pride in trying to get people to throw out great maps for a great game. They hassle you because they want your map to be good, not because they dislike you or your work (ok, well they might dislike your work, but they're trying to help you make it better so that they will come to like it).

 

[friagram]

You MIGHT be able to get away with that in GameBanana, but not here. Here we strive to make Valve-quality maps, and most of the maps that make it official HAVE, in fact, come from this forum. Most of the original maps you see in competitive servers can also trace their roots back to here as well.

Don't brush us off as a bunch of dumbasses trying to insult your map. We're telling you that this isn't what the site is about (striving towards a Valve-like quality of TF2 maps). Even if it's your first map, having it LOOK like TF2 is a HUGE step.

We're here to help you improve your maps that were designed for TF2 (or, if they were inspired or designed for another game, as my first map was, help you improve a map with TF2's artstyle and tweaks to compensate for TF2's gameplay, and even then it's iffy). If you just want to get your map exposure, go to Gamebanana, You are, quite frankly, not wanted here. But if you're serious about mapping for TF2 and NOT Quake or whatever, stay, shape up, quit being such an arrogant prick, and make your maps at least LOOK like they were meant for TF2.

I apologize if I sound harsh, but you have not listened to us after 4 pages and it's evident that playing coy and being nice won't get it through your thick skull. An attitude isn't going to help your cause, either.

I see, first post where someone actually said what they had on their mind.
Pretty much everyone else decided not to do anything constructive, or even bother to take the time to be helpful.

Making a valve/tf2 clone was not my intention obviously.
Does a map have to look like a valve map to be good? No.
Antiquity is one for eqample that is quite popular, and strays quite far from the typical valve theme.

Half of the posters here decided to offer nothing helpful at all
"sorry i threwup on my keyboard"
"lololol use scale of .7"
So, before having even posted anything, I was already beat down for no reason whatsoever, which is quite rude. Go look. I mean seriously, this is how you greet new mappers/people to your community?

I may not be the most skilled mapper, and have limited experience with hammer/source SDK. But I still managed to build a map with custom models, gameplay, and modes (that is still in development). I make a post and all I get is criticism out of nowhere, probably from many noncontributing asshats that would rather troll forums than download/install the SDK or modeling software. Knowing how to set the scale of a texture is pretty basic, so why even post to criticize if you don't know what you are talking about? Just blatant trolling.

 

[Vincent]

I'm going to be honest when I say I skipped through the posts and didn't pay a whole lot of attention to what everyone was saying. So with that I'll say yes, sorry, I did notice that we did actually start being douche bags for no real true reason without explaining ourselves first in a dignified way. Not that you acted respectful in any way yourself.

As stated, this forum doesn't look kindly on maps using old outdated textures, linear gameplay, or gimmicky elements that are hard to explain without a lot of reading. Given the chance to truly observe and play your map I can safely assume I'd have the opinion of everyone else when I say "We just don't like it. Sorry to say that". When you say you didn't come here to make a valve/tf2 map clone I become confused and felt you really have no idea what you are talking about. Simply because we reuse assets from the game we are mapping for does not, in anyway, make our map a clone of other maps from this game. In fact that just sounds arrogant and stupid to assume, and personally I'm offended.

Despite this being your first map, if you had any real intention of becoming a better mapper for TF2 why would you use such terrible textures and models in the first place? You could just use the models from the game, it'll look better in the end and people will be oh so much more inclined to help you. Whether that help is suggestions or even modeling so you have assets of your own to use.

If all you want to do is map in this style, take the map to GameBanana or just choose a different game entirely. It might be elitist, we may be dicks, but that's not what this forum wants.

 

[Sergis]

I just wish good maps were receiving this amount of feedback this quickly. Looking at this thread and then at page 3 of cp_energy thread makes me sad.