- Thread starter DrLambda
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Alpha 5 - This ain't no Viaduct / Mid is not safe
Changelog
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Changelog
- Redesigned mid, putting emphasis on making it easier to attack.
- Opened windows on east flank so you can both push and spam the point from there
- Added a completely new building with sniper windows on the west flank
- Lowered the point, increased point wideness by ~128hu to be able to fit the slopes in there
- Added a rock to east flank - It's an shortcut to get to the battlements from mid
- Switched medium pickups at east flank over to help pushing last
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Jekyllson
L3: Member
- Jun 20, 2015
- 115
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Looking good! I had some time to think, and if last is still too easy to defend for long periods of time, you could experiment by adding an elevated door on last (that was kind of similar to the elevated window/door between Snakewater's second and middle points) that opened after the attacking team held the middle control point for a set amount of time and (possibly) closed after the midpoint was recaptured. I mentioned something similar before, but I have a lot more faith in it as a viable idea now. Looking at your overview, a good spot for such a door could be right here:
You could experiment further by messing around with the conditions for the door in a variety of ways, such as having it close upon recapture of the midpoint or not, having both doors permanently open automatically after a set amount of time to ramp up the tension, and adding in other dynamic elements to help or hinder teams.
You could experiment further by messing around with the conditions for the door in a variety of ways, such as having it close upon recapture of the midpoint or not, having both doors permanently open automatically after a set amount of time to ramp up the tension, and adding in other dynamic elements to help or hinder teams.
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I really like this map I had a lot of fun playing it in todays test.Maybe its because I play demoman and it has a great combination of cover and ramps that you can spam over and indoor spaces to fight in heh!
Im not sure I like how the last point is set up, to walk on to it you have to go past the spawns so it kind of encourages you to spawn camp if you want to win. I didnt actually see that happen in the game today but it might be something to think about
Some people didnt seem to get the concept but I think its a good idea - having a final cap that is not required to win but is a way to finish the game quicker if one team is gettin rolled.The problem with KOTh maps is that once youve secured the point the only objective left seems to be to go and wreck the enemy spawn so this is a nice way to have a legitimate objective thats not totallly lame. Im not sure having the final route go past the spawn doors is a good idea because it kind of brings the spawn camp problem back but I really like the map concept, look forward to playing future versions
Im not sure I like how the last point is set up, to walk on to it you have to go past the spawns so it kind of encourages you to spawn camp if you want to win. I didnt actually see that happen in the game today but it might be something to think about
Some people didnt seem to get the concept but I think its a good idea - having a final cap that is not required to win but is a way to finish the game quicker if one team is gettin rolled.The problem with KOTh maps is that once youve secured the point the only objective left seems to be to go and wreck the enemy spawn so this is a nice way to have a legitimate objective thats not totallly lame. Im not sure having the final route go past the spawn doors is a good idea because it kind of brings the spawn camp problem back but I really like the map concept, look forward to playing future versions
The problem with this map is that it functions great as either a 3cp map OR a KOTH map, but not so much as both in its current form. I went Engi on BLU in the last 3 rounds with a level 3 and never had RED fight the mid point as almost all of them were camping last and mid was a wasteland of only team mates, but nobody to fight. We didn't push up to last because you have to walk in front of the enemy spawn in order to get on it, or be a explosive jumping class, and even then, it takes quite a long time to cap last. At that point you're better off spawn camping.
I saw the demos and i think i understand. I don't agree with you that the sentry is to strong on where you placed it, there are still multiple positions from where you can take it out (although an able sniper could probably cover most of them if they don't involve lobbing stickies over the wall, so it is a spot i have to watch.)
The problem mostly seems to be that even with all the incentives to push out of last, most of the players on RED seemed to be happy with losing very slowly rather than trying to push for mid, which i think i succeeded in making it easier to take back.
The thing is that this doesn't necessarily prove the idea wrong. I think i can even say that it was a minor success. If this was a 3CP map, the round wouldn't end for a long long time if everyone just stood on last and waited (see Powerhouse for example.) This way puts the defending team under way more pressure to do something or lose within a reasonable timeframe. If they decide against taking action, the round will end just like any round on a KOTH round would.
The thing is that RED wasn't really losing by a lot, but they only tried to push out with like 3-4 players max, and even BLU was ever only trying to get onto last with 3-4 players, and i am actually quite okay with both of these kind of pushes not really working out, because otherwise i'd be scared that a even round ends because a few people randomly were able to push last for a few seconds.
That's the problem from what i saw during the gameday. At best, the attackers were attacking with like 4 people against 5 or 6 defenders, unless i missed something big. If i allowed those attacks to work, there probably wouldn't be much of a round left, wouldn't there? I don't consider 1-minute-rounds optimal.
The cap time of last is already so low (4 seconds) that a rogue body part that falls on the point probably gets pretty close to capping it, and the respawn timers for the defenders are almost double that (7 seconds.)
What i consider a problem from watching the replay are the sentries in front of the point inside the cap zone, and i will probably make the cap zone a func_nobuild like i did on mid. Not being able to build a sentry that cover every entrance should make it a bit easier to get a controlled push to succeed.
While i think the buildings between mid and last are mostly for transition purposes, i think they are at least somehow equipped for fights happening inside them - They're pretty high and wide, allowing dodging etc. I'm comfortable having fights happening there, although most of them should probably happen on last (compare this to the lobby and last in Gullywash.)
I've been thinking about this idea for the last few days and i'm liking it more and more. It puts pressure on the losing team to actually act, and i could also use this door to increase the tension in the later phases of the game, per exampling permanently opening the door of a team that has 30 or less seconds remaining on the clock to increase the chance of a last-ditch push onto last.
What i'm planning to do: Release an A6 that addresses the basic problems i've seen or got feedback during the game day, basically nobuilding the last capture zone and adding a few small pickups. Then, i'll test it in one or two imps, hoping to get a few even matches so i can get a good feeling on how long a successful counterpush usually would take. Then, i'll double that time, add a few seconds, and use that as a baseline for opening said highground path, then add that path.
I just need a way to make the player intuitively know what the doors do.
I also probably have to cave in and increase the KOTH timers, because i think that the base time for the doors to open will be around 90 seconds, and in that case the timer might not matter enough with a total clock of 180 seconds.
Jekyllson
L3: Member
- Jun 20, 2015
- 115
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Sounds like a solid plan. And yeah, a decently long KotH timer could give you a little more room to experiment with without making matches drag on too long.
As for making the player intuitively know what the doors do, during testing you could maybe use a standard sliding door with maybe a big countdown clock on it (if even a timer; you could just write on the wall "Door opens after the capture point has been captured for N seconds" for testers). When the door opens, you could activate a flashing light next to the door on both sides and have it play an obvious noise to make it apparent.
Later on in the map's development, if you settle on having the door stay open after it opens the first time, you could replace the door with a series of explosives set up on both sides of the wall (either attached to a physical timer, or you could add the bomb's timer to the HUD somewhere). Instead of a door opening, the explosives would blast a hole through the wall; this would both be a cool and understandable feature players would figure out on the second playthrough, if not the first, and which would be immediately apparent to anyone in the vicinity without requiring an alarm going off or flashing lights. I thought that explosives blowing a hole in the wall would make more sense than a timed door within the context of a Mayan-themed map, but again, this only really works if you decide to leave the door open after it gets opened for the first time, so I wouldn't do something that fancy until later!
A6 - I'll probably redesign last after this version
Changelog
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Changelog
- Added a nobuild on the last capture area
- Added medium healthkit and medium ammo to east flank
- Raised a sightblocker by 72hu to make it less easy to jump onto it from the east high ground
- Added a whole bunch of directional arrows
- Replaced inside door on west flank, combining both rooms
- Fixed mid cap point not unlocking on mp_waitingforplayers_cancel
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Green dev textures look like golf course grass...
You're third!
Aeix
L3: Member
- Feb 14, 2016
- 147
- 58
I feel like this map plays decently, but you need to find ways of getting people to the third points without lowering the cap times on last. From what I played of it on an imp tonight, the two times a team won from capturing the third point, was because someone back-capped. I guess a way of helping move players from mid to third could be to make mid really hard to hold.
Also, thanks for the CompilePal help
Also, thanks for the CompilePal help
I feel like this map plays decently, but you need to find ways of getting people to the third points without lowering the cap times on last. From what I played of it on an imp tonight, the two times a team won from capturing the third point, was because someone back-capped. I guess a way of helping move players from mid to third could be to make mid really hard to hold.
Also, thanks for the CompilePal help
I actually tried to make mid harder to defend compared to Viaduct during the last few alphas, essentially giving the pushing team a highground advantage up until the slope down to mid. My goal was basically giving a team pushing last a reason to do so while making holding mid quite hard unless you hold a bit behind the point. From what i've seen in the demos (and playing myself) that seems to work.
For the next alpha, i'm planning to redesign parts of last, both forcing the team to leave spawn to defend and possibly adding the before-mentioned "domination door(s?)." After i did this, i feel comfortable pushing cap time on last back a bit to 5-6s while possibly upping the KOTH timer to 4 minutes.
PS: No problem, always happy to help.
Like i said, this is kinda what i was aiming at (after aiming in the completely different direction with a1-a3.) I wanted to make mid a place where you can cap, and then try to hold on either the highground or slightly behind the point rather than standing on it. The reason for that was that i want to emphasize pushing last rather than standing on mid. If you try to hold at mid rather than behind it, the small advantage for the attackers becomes a rather large advantage because like you said you can be spammed out from 3,5 different high grounds.
I wouldn't compare the mid to Suijin, because the capture area is (estimated) about 250% larger, and the complete fighting area about 200%. You can absolutely cap mid without being hit by spam rockets shot at the middle of the capture point - that is quite impossible on suijin.
I'm going for easy to cap, but harder to hold, and i think this will be more evident when i finished my changes on last which make it a bit more reasonable to attack it. That way, i think simply waiting for the KOTH timer to run out becomes less of an option because you could always lose mid.
Jekyllson
L3: Member
- Jun 20, 2015
- 115
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I know I've already flooded this thread with my "ideas", but I feel compelled to share another one. I don't necessarily recommend implementing this just yet, but maybe in the future if mid is still too easy to defend, and only if this idea actually makes any kind sense, you might consider trying it out.
After one team capped mid, the control point would start pulsating (giving players a chance to get off of it), and then, 5-15 seconds after the point was capped, it would start dealing damage over time to any players from the team that captured it. The opposing team would be free to walk on the control point so as to capture it back, but the team with the mid advantage would have a more difficult time defending it since they would have to avoid walking across the middle ground in the area.
As for tying this in with a potential Mayann theme (again, if you decide to make this a part of that project), the midpoint could be "sacred ground" for a Mayann deity who doesn't appreciate having a team claim his/her/its point.
But yeah, one thing that gives me pause is the fear of adding too many unnecessary gimmicks to a single map, so I would see what you can do to make mid hard to defend but easy to cap using traditional mapmaking techniques before applying a gimmick to it.
After one team capped mid, the control point would start pulsating (giving players a chance to get off of it), and then, 5-15 seconds after the point was capped, it would start dealing damage over time to any players from the team that captured it. The opposing team would be free to walk on the control point so as to capture it back, but the team with the mid advantage would have a more difficult time defending it since they would have to avoid walking across the middle ground in the area.
As for tying this in with a potential Mayann theme (again, if you decide to make this a part of that project), the midpoint could be "sacred ground" for a Mayann deity who doesn't appreciate having a team claim his/her/its point.
But yeah, one thing that gives me pause is the fear of adding too many unnecessary gimmicks to a single map, so I would see what you can do to make mid hard to defend but easy to cap using traditional mapmaking techniques before applying a gimmick to it.