Underhanded

[Ezekel]

ok so quicky question here.

it's been bothering me for a bit, but i don't really have any elegant solutions for this. so i wanted to bounce this at peeps and hear what they think.

alright, with underhanded, there's this drop down entrance into a short corridor on the side of each base. the problem with this is that well it means that people can simply just set up a tele exit and sentry down there and pretty much have a very hard to take out position. that teleporter lets the team pretty much ignore the middle of the map.
(note: when i say left or right side of the base i'm referring to the base from the point of view of someone running out of that base's spawn room)

1: now i could connect up this path to the rocket room (middle room), but the problem with that is that it means that there's now a path that's basically a dead-end for most classes (since only rocket/demo jumping can get out of the dropdown at the end).

2: the other thing i considered was to also extend the corridor to have a walk-in exit/entrance in the middle (between the elevator columns, where the small medkits are currently). this would deal with the dead-end issue that the 1st idea would create. the problem with this though is that it means there's an even longer straight corridor (more power to sentrys), and having an entrance there means people can circumvent the rocket room (which i still would like to be a focal point).

3: then there's the next option: complete removal of this path. this has the advantage of shifting the flow back to the rocket room, and removing the strong sentry/teleporter beach head. the problem with this though is that, well it means there's only 3 entrances (and 4 exits cos of the one way path). - this could lead to the main entrance (ground floor, with the large staircase) becoming unassailable as a result, since sentrys will likely be rife, which leaves the upper floor. one of the upper floor entrances (the one that leads to the out-of-order elevator door) is only reachable by scout/demo/soldy, whilst the other one requires players to run along the top middle walkway of the centre (exposed), and then through the sniper point. - that's not a very good situation for non-soldy/demo/scout players. - i could pile up some barrels/crates/etc to let people jump up the left side (where the drop down currently is), so they can get up to the sniper point path without running the map, but i think that'd slow flow down too much as it'd turn into the primary route.

4: the other idea i've had is to tweak things up like this: make the 1-way path a 2way path, but make it connect to the rocket room instead of to the rightside platform room. furthermore, i'll retain the dropdown path, but similarly, have it connect to the rocket room, though i'll probably also keep the access to the platform of the leftside platform room. this'll mean the focus is still on the rocket room, but now it'll be coming from 3 different faces (so a sentry on the second floor no longer locks down the ground floor as effectively). the downsides however are 2fold: there's still the issue of the dropdown path being an effective deadend for it's own team, and that players attacking along the ground floor on the outside will mostly gravitate towards using the side path that is now accessible as an entrance, as it will be encountered before the main entrance.

in regards to 4, i have considered the following additions that may help:
a: the walkways are currently such that there are only two staircases upfrom the mid level walkways to the top (in opposite corners), so i'd put another two in the other corners.
b: accept that getting people to use the staircase exit as the primary entrance will be impossible, and embrace this. thus -> the drop-down path will require an extension beyond the drop down room, which will have to lead to an exit (most likely at the point where the small medkit is, as mentioned above). - also connect it to the rocket room.
c: a possible underground connection between the two side routes, with a possible additional exit in the centre of the map, beneath the large rock formation. - though perhaps this is a lil too much, as that could lead to far too many entrances, and a lot of tight corridors (corridors are generally bad news for all classes)

 

[Ezekel]

with help from a friendly chron, i managed to sort out a lot of thoughts about the map and was able to produce a new version

yay

 

[Ezekel]

updated. no more crazy areaportal'age

 

[Ezekel]

updated as b8.

 

[Tyker]

This is the spot I was talking about during the gameday:

In screen 1 you see the spot that is kinda annoying/can stop you when you charge. I think this spot needs a little something like you see in screen 2 to make it less clippy.

 

[grazr]

Hm, there were a lot of corners and edges to get stuck on. The yellow hydro bollards infront of the main entrance were particularly annoying culprits. I didn't really notice clipping issues in the last test other than the consoles in the spawn (most of which you've now removed). You deffinately need to work your way through your map making sure most of the stuff on walls is either clipped or set to no-collision.

Since you opened up the bases left flank combat seems more eratic as players are more diluted throughout your map. The middle also suffers from too many paths where it should be the one place where players are forced to meet face to face. The multiple catwalks cut up firing lines making it incredibly awkward to shoot at people accurately, especially with projectile weapons, but they still leave the sightlines intact (which is incredibly awkward). Subsequently, crossing the middle is a nightmare, and anyone on the central catwalk has a distinct advantage over anyone else. Secondly, your main entrance is still a tiny chokepoint that's horrible to pass through. Demomen have a field day lobbing pipes and stickies through them.

One thing that's rather awkward is the spawns exiting above the intel room's entrances/exits. Other than the drop down (that rarely gets used) thats the only access point to the intel; so grabbing the intel is a matter of being ninja about it, then suicide running it back room by room out of the enemy base. The majority of full assaults fail yet single players can slip through infrequently and do a lot more damage, which is kinda ironic TF2 gameplay, probably as a result of all the paths and flanking oppotunities (of which need to be cut down).

This is the part where i make some paint over images in photoshop making layout change suggestions but my graphics card is going mental and my screen keeps flickering purple, so.... i guess they'll come after i let my computer cool down.

 

[Ezekel]

i eagerly await you pictures of improvement suggestions

regarding clipping (or lack thereof) of models - i've not actually made a single change to them at all, including the consoles.

all detail models (lights, wall based conduits, etc) are non-solid. most groups of models in close proximity have a player clip to simplify geometry as well.
the yellow bollards are going to vanish. i'm not really sure why i left them there, as i'd had some issues with them myself a few times in earlier versions (probably just me forgetting about it and not noting it down )
for me part of the model/detail placing process is to analyse the clipping/solidity of it at the same time that i'm placing it (i find it saves time)

regarding the spawn room's exits being near the flag room entrances/exits how do you suggest i combat this? i could add another set of entrances to the flag from from the rooms in from of them (ground floor access), would that solve the problem?

regarding the flanking paths, i don't wish to remove them really. before they existed the problem was that there was a lack of alternative options for getting into/out of the bases.

regarding the main entrance: considering map geometry i'm not sure what i can do there to be honest and would welcome suggestions.

regarding the sightlines/targetlines of the centre: i have a solution that involves removing the top walkway, except for 2 small stubs/platforms, one at each end to connect up the staircases (which will be switched around so they're on the left like the staircase leading to the ground). i'll also remove the middle walkway that runs perpendicular to the upper one.
this should open things up considerably, and allow for better target leading with demo pipe bombs and soldier rockets.

i'm also going to do a medkit-pass for the bases.
the existing ones on the bottom floor will be made medium instead of small, and i'll look for places to put more of them.


you said before that you thought the scale of the map (travel times, room sizes, etc) were done well. having played this version, do you still feel this to be true?


edit: oh about your GPU overheating. i dunno how computer savvy you are, so i hope you aren't offended by my offering suggestions. i think you might wanna open up your pc and get rid of the dust buildup. also it wouldn't hurt to check the GPU's cooling solution is adequately attached.
also - most people have like "cubby holes" in desks for computers, but these don't take into account that some cases have side-ventilation ports/grills. make sure your pc's getting enough air flow. - i hope these help.

 

[grazr]

middle red quadrilateral is supposed to be the intel, the other 3 red quad's are consoles 'a la' your spawn room. This is one suggestion, along with the changed doorways (see later image for more detail on door setting). running under the spawn exits was a pain and needs to be addressed, this seemed the logical response to that fact:

This was supposed to be for the bottom floor. Move the doors down there further to the far walls like so:

Remove these 2 windows, and consider making the top path only a window, but depends on how players use and exploit the existing routes.

Middle:

This is supposed to be a cliff top, accessed by the same route that previously lead you up here. The elevator shaft closest to the relavent bases exit is removed, as are the catwalk. You would be best to remove some of the excessively placed rock props to increase space for player movement, the bottom was always a trap but atleast the catwalks gave sufficient cover. In fact you might be able to keep the central catwalk if you really wanted since they do allign up to the cliff edges either side of the bases. The cliffs were supposed to allow cover fire and a position for soldiers and demo's, having a catwalk would reduce the ability to shoot down into the centre, but grabbing the catwalk would mean they could shoot down at either bases entrance if you remove those huge rocks.

 

[Ezekel]

b9 is out and about

 

[Ezekel]

normally i wouldn't bump, but in light of absolutely no feedback from last gameday...
(aka, could i has feedbacks please)

 

[Ida]

I don't think moving the spawns was a good idea. It causes spawncamping, and you almost always have to go by the spawn to get to the intel room, so I'm not sure if it really improved the flow of the map. Another thing I don't like about the new spawns is that they don't face the exit, so it's very disorienting to exit them because you never know if you're supposed to go left or right without reading signs - and a common TF2 mapping problem is that people don't read signs.

Currently though, I don't really have any other major issues with it. The rest of the map is still very fun, so if you can find a better position for the spawns I'd probably be happy at least.

 

[Ezekel]

I don't think moving the spawns was a good idea. It causes spawncamping, and you almost always have to go by the spawn to get to the intel room, so I'm not sure if it really improved the flow of the map. Another thing I don't like about the new spawns is that they don't face the exit, so it's very disorienting to exit them because you never know if you're supposed to go left or right without reading signs - and a common TF2 mapping problem is that people don't read signs.

Currently though, I don't really have any other major issues with it. The rest of the map is still very fun, so if you can find a better position for the spawns I'd probably be happy at least.

was that with a full 24/24 number of players? do you think that spawn camping would still happen on a 6v6 player count?

regarding the arrow and teh exit's facing direction. i know what you're talking about. but i honestly don't think that it really fully applies here since the arrow is staring the player in the face when they go to leave the spawn room. there's nothing else on that wall or near it to distract the eye either. i suppose i could use an overlay arrow instead (or as well as) the model sign arrow, just to make it even bigger and more prominent.

i was hoping putting the spawns up there would remove them from directly being on the the attack paths.
i guess what i might've failed to consider is how this new spawn area means that people are more likely to leave the base via the upper paths, which in turn connect well with the upper entrances of the other base, thus making more people enter at that point. - i'll need to check out the STV recording to check on this to be sure.

i may end up putting the spawn back near where it was, but changing the access points into the intel room to counter the original reason for moving it.


one thing i've learned though for the future: i won't make CTF bases have a symmetrical shape along their length, as it doesn't seem to help in seperating the spawn room and intel room away from each other.

anyway. i'll be looking at the STV as soon as it's available and seeing what i can do to fix things

 

[Ida]

was that with a full 24/24 number of players? do you think that spawn camping would still happen on a 6v6 player count?

I'm pretty sure we had 24 players, at least nearly. But remember, this contest is competitive CTF, not 6v6 CTF, so it's just as important to consider 12v12 players!

 

[Ezekel]

I'm pretty sure we had 24 players, at least nearly. But remember, this contest is competitive CTF, not 6v6 CTF, so it's just as important to consider 12v12 players!

it is? dang, i thought it was for 6v6. - well actually that might be good, since i think i may have overestimated the complexity and size of the map for acommodating 6v6 slightly)


anyways, been brainstorming. i think for the ctf version i'm gonna make the open area where the flag is now be un-reachable.
i'll move the flag to the right side room with the balcony in it. (right side = when looking at the base from the centre of the map)
i'll have the spawnroom on the other side. coming out on the middle floor of the rocket room on that side, and out of the door leading to the balcony on the left side. (with spawn points facing the door that leads to the rocket room).

top floor flagroom access will become a vent passage into the new flagroom that drops players onto the raised walkway.

finally, i'll add a passage going beneath the new spawn room i mentioned above that will go under the old flag room area, and come out on the rear of the new flag room.


these things should:
- cut down the size of the map (people have implied on occasion it's too long), as it removes about 1/2 of each base.
- seperate the spawn room from the flag room.
- allow players to get to the flagroom without passing the spawn room (or near to it).
- gives 2 two-way passages into/out of the flag room from opposite sides
- gives one two-way passage to the flagroom that is convenient for defenders, but still keeps the flagroom and spawnroom apart.
- gives one one-way passage into the flagroom which should be lower risk for players to get to and enter (but not necessarily easier to attack the flagroom from), similar to the vent passage into the flagroom of turbine.
- breaks the symmetry along the length of the bases, which probably will have a beneficial affect in preventing players feeling lost (cos there won't be as much reflectionally mirrored geometry within the bases)

considering there's only about 2 weeks to go, i'm gonna have my work cut out for me, but i think i should just be able to scrape through one more release before the deadline.


edit:
any news on when the STV files will be put up from the gameday?

 

[Ezekel]

it's at b10 now.

was really hoping for testing this w/end but servers got messed up. not sure if i'll have time to make a new version before the deadline now, even if bugs do get found.

 

[Wilson]

Played it yesterday with you, fun map to play on and pretty balanced map.
I love those little jokes with doors and sings around the map and it is not the most sniper friendly map on earth (Good job!)

I still think bases feel a tiny bit dull, maybe it is lack of any other sound than rainstorm going on outside the cave.
It needs more loud beeps and stuff like that.

 

[lucky]

The new intel areas don't feel like intel areas since they don't look that special...
are you still going to work on this after the contest?

 

[Ezekel]

The new intel areas don't feel like intel areas since they don't look that special...
are you still going to work on this after the contest?

most probably yes

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Optimizing:
• [00] An areaportal would be good in this hole.
• [01] AP merging.
• [02] [03] [04] [05] [06] [07] A bunch of places that need non-visable faces nodrawn. Also the resupply lockers in the old spawn and the light fixtures by the rockets should be removed.


Nothing much sticks out to me but there is an overall "meh" feeling. I think it's that everything is gray. The entire bases are gray concrete, and the middle is all enclosed gray rock too. There is a fair bit of color in the bases though, so I don't really know...
There is a decent amount of detailing, but a lot of it doesn't really go together. Barrels and computers scattered here and there all over, with seemingly no rhyme or reason to the bases.
One thing I think would help a lot is to remove nearly all the no-entry doors. They are just plain everywhere and just add visual clutter and confusion.
• [09] Sign should be smaller.


• [08] You get hung up a bit walking over this.