[WIP] PL_Great_Heights

toutfou

L3: Member
Sep 8, 2008
136
16
Ah. Well unfortunately this release doesn't have it, but b3 will :) I'm running way too close to out of time and have to get packing for my big move. But the good news is...

promo_b2.jpg


You can download from FPS Banana here: http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/73905

Will be uploaded to tf2maps shortly, my upstream speed is stupidly slow :/
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
We had a lot of fun on this map tonight while playing it 8-8. It's already one of my favorite payload maps, mainly due to the vertical fighting. Unfortunately there are some issues that you should address. Since we only played it a short while most aren't about gameplay.

1. You need to mark areas where people can and can't walk off of. Cliffs that you'll die when walking over should have little death signs every so often. One of the spawns, I believe on the second stage, exits to one side and overlooks the roof of a building on the previous stage. It's a drop of about 15 feet, but people die when jumping off. It resulted in 2 people dying right away. Things like that need to be made much more clear.

2. You need respawn times for the defenders. On the first stage I killed off 5 people on the entire team and 2 dispensers. While our team was fighting to kill the remaining 3 enemies the entire enemy team respawned and we weren't able to move the cart more than 30 feet. They said they were respawning in 2-3 seconds. I'd really suggest respawn times of 10-15 seconds for defenders on a map of this scale.

3. There are massive FPS drops at the first turn in stage 1, since you can see the entire map above you. It looks pretty, but I'd really recommend blocking a big chunk of the view with a building. Maybe even a building people can use so they can look out windows on the opposite side and see the view. I personally dropped from 110fps to 25fps at one point in that part.

4. There are a few too many nooks for sentries. I play a lot of engineer and was drooling over them. Adding some props into smaller corners and completely blocking a few of the larger corners should help quite a bit. I'd suggest just doing the smaller ones first and seeing if it makes a big difference.

5. The explosion at the end is a bit anticlimactic, especially since the cart just kind of falls 10 feet and explodes. You have a huge drop there if you extend the track 10 feet out... it'd be impressive if the cart rolled off that and made a big explosion.

6. Your spawns need some detail work, but obviously it's still in progress so that can come later. I don't like the narrow wall blocking the door in the first spawn. I'd recommend opening it up a bit and blocking on the outside to prevent sniping if necessary. It's just too cramped right now.

7. The ice wall was awesome, but confusing. We thought you could shoot through it to gain access. I like that it opens after the checkpoint, so maybe there's some way of clarifying this? A diagram in the BLU spawn would be excellent. Or maybe just leave it and people will figure it out after the first time playing?

8. You need some more signs showing people which way to go. A good example is that nobody noticed the alternate route over the water section (which everyone loved, btw). Maybe add a main arrow pointing left for BLU and a smaller one with "Alternate" pointing to the right when they get to that part? Little things like that will help a bit.

9. There was WAY too much health and metal on the map. I'd recommend switching 1/3 of the health and metal to mediums and 1/3 to smalls, or just removing some of them altogether. I decided to not make a dispenser for my sentry because there were two mega metals within 2 seconds of each other. The BLU team has the cart and the RED team should rely on engineer's dispensers for a bit of their metal. Same for medics and health. For comparison look at the metal/health on Badwater.

For gameplay it seemed like there were a few areas that didn't get used much, but I think more playtesting and heatmaps will help clarify that. I'll definitely keep my eyes open for more things since this map will be a permanent fixture on our server.

Once again, we absolutely loved the map and I think people will be very impressed by it. I'm betting you'll get a lot of feedback from floormaster on this one too. :)
 

toutfou

L3: Member
Sep 8, 2008
136
16
We had a lot of fun on this map tonight while playing it 8-8. It's already one of my favorite payload maps, mainly due to the vertical fighting. Unfortunately there are some issues that you should address. Since we only played it a short while most aren't about gameplay.

Awesome :) Cheers for the feedback - glad you liked it.

I believe on the second stage, exits to one side and overlooks the roof of a building on the previous stage. It's a drop of about 15 feet, but people die when jumping off. It resulted in 2 people dying right away. Things like that need to be made much more clear.

Good idea. Initially there were no barriers and this was just a touch too harsh... as I kept the same playtesters for the majority of the time, this never really became an issue but I can see how it would be misconceived.

You need respawn times for the defenders. On the first stage I killed off 5 people on the entire team and 2 dispensers. While our team was fighting to kill the remaining 3 enemies the entire enemy team respawned and we weren't able to move the cart more than 30 feet. They said they were respawning in 2-3 seconds. I'd really suggest respawn times of 10-15 seconds for defenders on a map of this scale.

I've never had respawn times that low as defenders. There are times set and adjusted per cap point, so I'm not sure why they were seeing times this low. Some server settings perhaps, or low player numbers?

There are massive FPS drops at the first turn in stage 1, since you can see the entire map above you.

I'm aware of this, it's my #1 priority for B3. I'm assuming you're talking about the first corner after you come out of Red spawn? I have a lot in mind for optimisation that should help speed this area up. As for other areas, I'm still yet to start blocking a lot of areas off with areaportals, it should help in the next version.


There are a few too many nooks for sentries. I play a lot of engineer and was drooling over them. Adding some props into smaller corners and completely blocking a few of the larger corners should help quite a bit. I'd suggest just doing the smaller ones first and seeing if it makes a big difference.

I'd actually been thinking some sentry spots weren't strong enough :) Through our playtests they became weaker and weaker as everyone learnt the ins and outs of the map and good/bad advantage points. I'm interested to see if you still find this a problem overtime.

The explosion at the end is a bit anticlimactic, especially since the cart just kind of falls 10 feet and explodes. You have a huge drop there if you extend the track 10 feet out... it'd be impressive if the cart rolled off that and made a big explosion.

Yeah for sure, I need to reassess the entire last part of round 3. One thing I do like is having your ragdoll exploding all the way back into Round 1, did this happen to you/any of your players? I'll be brainstorming ideas over the next couple of weeks for refinements.

Your spawns need some detail work, but obviously it's still in progress so that can come later. I don't like the narrow wall blocking the door in the first spawn. I'd recommend opening it up a bit and blocking on the outside to prevent sniping if necessary. It's just too cramped right now.

Not sure what spawn/wall you're talking about here. All of them do need a good detail pass though.

The ice wall was awesome, but confusing. We thought you could shoot through it to gain access. I like that it opens after the checkpoint, so maybe there's some way of clarifying this? A diagram in the BLU spawn would be excellent. Or maybe just leave it and people will figure it out after the first time playing?

I'm not sure a diagram could explain it too well. I may end up leaving it and have players figuring it out overtime. Something I do have to solve though is players using the bottom exit from Blu spawn after it has opened, as a lot of them seem to be doing this and it's making them take the long way around still.

You need some more signs showing people which way to go. A good example is that nobody noticed the alternate route over the water section (which everyone loved, btw). Maybe add a main arrow pointing left for BLU and a smaller one with "Alternate" pointing to the right when they get to that part? Little things like that will help a bit.

Good idea, I think this area could also do with being lit a bit more to draw their attention.

There was WAY too much health and metal on the map. I'd recommend switching 1/3 of the health and metal to mediums and 1/3 to smalls, or just removing some of them altogether.

I agree. It's been tough to balance due to the vertical nature of the map. Especially if you're on the push upwards, the nearest health for Blu may be directly above them, but to get there you have to run around the corner and up some stairs etc... But I'll be taking a closer look at this. If you spot any areas in particular where you think it's a bit too much, I'd like to hear about it.

For gameplay it seemed like there were a few areas that didn't get used much, but I think more playtesting and heatmaps will help clarify that. I'll definitely keep my eyes open for more things since this map will be a permanent fixture on our server.

I've started to see most areas being utilised, some are weaker areas than others but depending on the strategies of each team, they seem to be used at some point. Thanks for the spot on your server :) What's the IP for that?

Once again, we absolutely loved the map and I think people will be very impressed by it. I'm betting you'll get a lot of feedback from floormaster on this one too. :)

Cheers :) I'm actually a little worried about floormasters feedback, given the current performance issues, with 30 players it'll be a bit worse off :blushing:
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
What's the IP for that?

tf2.yinyarr.com. I'll definitely get some more playtests going on this and try getting you some specific screenshots of the ammo/health and FPS areas. Our time has been split between L4D and TF2, but I'll post them once we play it with a decent amount of people again. :)
 

laghlagh

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 15, 2008
389
53
pl_alp(s), pl_heap, pl_peak
 

flubber

L4: Comfortable Member
Nov 16, 2007
171
35
We just had a 24 game on this beauty, it was very fun, still i think some spot will be hard to win for offense, we will play it some more tonight. Do you have a overiew screenshots and max x/y coordonates so i can quickly make a heatmaps (don't when i ll have time to do it myself)? After tonight game i should be able to give feedback.
 

toutfou

L3: Member
Sep 8, 2008
136
16
tf2.yinyarr.com. I'll definitely get some more playtests going on this and try getting you some specific screenshots of the ammo/health and FPS areas. Our time has been split between L4D and TF2, but I'll post them once we play it with a decent amount of people again. :)

Ah cool, cheers :) L4D provides a good intermission between major tf2 bouts!

pl_alp(s), pl_heap, pl_peak

Cheers :) I think I'll run with Great Heights after all, too many players were already familiar with it. I'm going back to complete the original CP version though, so for that I'll probably use one of the names in this thread. Unless I can add in even more vertical aspects and then I'll probably called it Even Greater Heights ;)

We just had a 24 game on this beauty, it was very fun, still i think some spot will be hard to win for offense, we will play it some more tonight. Do you have a overiew screenshots and max x/y coordonates so i can quickly make a heatmaps (don't when i ll have time to do it myself)? After tonight game i should be able to give feedback.

Glad to hear it was enjoyed :) I'll get onto the screenshots today - is it possible to have data for each separate round? As the rounds overlap it could become quite cluttered
 

flubber

L4: Comfortable Member
Nov 16, 2007
171
35
Glad to hear it was enjoyed :) I'll get onto the screenshots today - is it possible to have data for each separate round? As the rounds overlap it could become quite cluttered

I'll never looked into Floormaster plugin for stage by stage stats, i'll try to drop an eye on it before the end of the week. Thx for the screen :)
 

toutfou

L3: Member
Sep 8, 2008
136
16
I'll never looked into Floormaster plugin for stage by stage stats, i'll try to drop an eye on it before the end of the week. Thx for the screen :)

Ah, what I meant was, is it possible to have separate heat maps for each round? Though the data from Floormasters stuff would be interesting too :)

The heat map is attached, hopefully i have the coords right:

top left: -2854,4354
bottom right: 2814,-2544
 

flubber

L4: Comfortable Member
Nov 16, 2007
171
35
Well here it is, i don't know what was buggy coor or jpg, but i re-made it (remove the roof of building to make it more clear). http://psychostats.canardplus.com/mapheat.php?id=154&heatid=Select+Heatmap

It's pretty hard to read due to the map layout (path going under, over the main track).

I don't think it's possible to seperate maps heatmaps by stage, since there is only one log for the entire map. I'm not saying that's impossible but i don't actually know a way to do it.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
127
Well here it is, i don't know what was buggy coor or jpg, but i re-made it (remove the roof of building to make it more clear). http://psychostats.canardplus.com/mapheat.php?id=154&heatid=Select+Heatmap

It's pretty hard to read due to the map layout (path going under, over the main track).

I don't think it's possible to seperate maps heatmaps by stage, since there is only one log for the entire map. I'm not saying that's impossible but i don't actually know a way to do it.

You could separate the rounds in the log and process each part separately. I'd check with psychostats' forums to see if there's a way to customize so each round is a different color.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,815
Here are the two photo's you asked me to spruce up.

pl_great_heights_a160006.jpg


Block off the red x. I noticed in a lot of this map there are loads of routes that lead almost anywhere. It would probably be well to limit the amount of directions of attack and defence. This bit seems like one of the needless distractions posed to players getting to the front line. I'm not too sure what you could put here because ultimately when checking out your map i never looked up there, and with players i probably never would. But you have vertical space here and you'll want to emphasise it somehow. If you have a tower or something poking out here at an angle or legde, it'll probably promote the maps "height" (it's focus) a lot more.

pl_great_heights_a160004.jpg


For this building use the blue brick texture (concrete/concretewall013). In the red squares use bullet proof glass. Not every window needs to be able to be sniped from or into. This will provide a defendable teleporter position with visibility in and out. Put some cover where the green barrel shaped bit is (outside). There's also plenty of room inside to include some Hydro style staircases.

Don't be afraid to add detail tracks for cart props. (where the green lines are).

Perhaps add some steamy vents here (yellow squares).

The first thing i did when spawning in the final round was jump off that balconyl.. either clip it, or don't put the legde below that makes it look like an alternative route.

I havn't had the chance to look at your third round properly. But it looks very maze like with corridors and cat walks (the ss you provided). You'll probably get a lot more idea's when you have space you can work with. Try and open it up a bit and think about what would be in this place.
 
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toutfou

L3: Member
Sep 8, 2008
136
16
Here are the two photo's you asked me to spruce up.

Cheers mate, really appreciate it!

Block off the red x. I noticed in a lot of this map there are loads of routes that lead almost anywhere. It would probably be well to limit the amount of directions of attack and defence. This bit seems like one of the needless distractions posed to players getting to the front line. I'm not too sure what you could put here because ultimately when checking out your map i never looked up there, and with players i probably never would. But you have vertical space here and you'll want to emphasise it somehow. If you have a tower or something poking out here at an angle or legde, it'll probably promote the maps "height" (it's focus) a lot more.

I did some minor work on this building before releasing B2, primarily to make the electrocution from landing on its roof, more readable. I think the added touches would help it out too, I especially like the antenna tower. It would also make that route a bit more interesting when passing through there in R3. Players have liked the sparks coming off of the building, so I may try and theme this around a power station of sorts.

For this building use the blue brick texture (concrete/concretewall013). In the red squares use bullet proof glass. Not every window needs to be able to be sniped from or into. This will provide a defendable teleporter position with visibility in and out. Put some cover where the green barrel shaped bit is (outside). There's also plenty of room inside to include some Hydro style staircases.
Cheers, all the ideas here I think would work well. I'm a little unsure of the red box on the hut to the right though, do you see that as some kind of transformer? I'm not picking up on the red arrows indication.

The first thing i did when spawning in the final round was jump off that balconyl.. either clip it, or don't put the legde below that makes it look like an alternative route.
It's proving a bit confusing. I'll likely box it in and add a see-through floor or windows.

I havn't had the chance to look at your third round properly. But it looks very maze like with corridors and cat walks (the ss you provided). You'll probably get a lot more idea's when you have space you can work with. Try and open it up a bit and think about what would be in this place.

I think the lack of detail isn't helping the maze feel much at all. Having space to work with is my biggest problem. The only way to increase it is to grow the stage over the end of R1 or R2, but I'm not fond of doing that as I think it'll have a big impact on the overall feel of the level. I don't mind its gameplay at the moment, it's proving to be a bit too tough for Blu to break through to the finale and the final kaboom needs a better overhaul. I'll be focusing on how to flesh it out detail wise quite a bit and making the chances of winning slightly higher.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,815
I meant move the transformer over onto the 'box' extrusion on the "hut" there. It's not necassery but i don't think that building on the left needs to appear so tall, as all your buildings are very tall and it would mix things up a bit. It'd allow some of the sky to come through.

You'll also need to reduce the bloom from your skybox, as it was somewhat blinding at points.

It's a lot to explain what i had in mind from just one point of view, and i'd rather just open hammer myself and get stuck into your map; ha ha. That'd be so much easier.

But basically i think you should reference hydro as your map is on that sort of scale and you're using a lot of those textures also. So your buildings are very similar too (not a bad thing).
 

toutfou

L3: Member
Sep 8, 2008
136
16
I meant move the transformer over onto the 'box' extrusion on the "hut" there. It's not necassery but i don't think that building on the left needs to appear so tall, as all your buildings are very tall and it would mix things up a bit. It'd allow some of the sky to come through.

You'll also need to reduce the bloom from your skybox, as it was somewhat blinding at points.

It's a lot to explain what i had in mind from just one point of view, and i'd rather just open hammer myself and get stuck into your map; ha ha. That'd be so much easier.

But basically i think you should reference hydro as your map is on that sort of scale and you're using a lot of those textures also. So your buildings are very similar too (not a bad thing).

Cool, an afterthought I had thought it may have been this. The HDR is a known issue, needs some further tweaks. I didnt think so much about hydro but you have a good point. I think I'll be doing that quite a bit now.

Well here it is, i don't know what was buggy coor or jpg, but i re-made it (remove the roof of building to make it more clear). http://psychostats.canardplus.com/mapheat.php?id=154&heatid=Select+Heatmap

It's pretty hard to read due to the map layout (path going under, over the main track).

I don't think it's possible to seperate maps heatmaps by stage, since there is only one log for the entire map. I'm not saying that's impossible but i don't actually know a way to do it.

Sorry flubber, totally forgot to answer your post. Thanks for the heatmap - sorry the original screen stuffed up, I thought it may have :/ Wasn't 100% sure if I took the coords right or not. I'll keep an eye on it over the coming days/weeks :)
 

Icarus

aa
Sep 10, 2008
2,245
1,210
Hey, your map is very cool. I really want to play it, but [-Q-] won't allow any maps over a 40MB limit. Only a few maps can go over that limit but even then they don't go over 60MB.

If you could shave off 7MB from the filesize, I'd be happy to make a push to get it on [-Q-].
 
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toutfou

L3: Member
Sep 8, 2008
136
16
Hey, your map is very cool. I really want to play it, but [-Q-] won't allow any maps over a 40MB limit. Only a few maps can go over that limit but even then they don't go over 60MB.

If you could shave off 7MB from the filesize, I'd be happy to make a push to get it on [-Q-].

Cheers. I've been talking to Shana about this as well. I'd really like to see it added, but I can't see it becoming lower than 60mb :/ I could do it for the current version, but I still have a lot of detail to add and I'm also planning on some custom stuff for the cave. Getting access to their player base would be amazing, but it is a pretty tough limit for the kind of map GH's is.

It's a shame, because I'd really like to see how it is on a 32 player match.
 

flubber

L4: Comfortable Member
Nov 16, 2007
171
35
I don't see the problem with the maps size (not only great height). People want beautiful map and small sized map well that doesn't exist. In bz2 format pl_gh weight 34Mo that's nothing for a classic dsl connexion (hoodoo is 42Mo). Il players don't want to go to a forums to pré-download the map or can't accept to wait 2 minuts for ingame download, well they can go and play on a fabulous 24/7 2fort full crit. - inst. respawn, i don't need them on my server.
 

Icarus

aa
Sep 10, 2008
2,245
1,210
At [-Q-], they want to keep the servers full 24/7, and a map that goes over 60MB just kills population, possibly the server, no matter how good it is.

There are plenty of good maps that are under 60MB (we measure them uncompressed). Freight, our biggest map, runs at that limit, and it barely makes it at night, but we absolutely love it.
 

NoHeroes

L2: Junior Member
Oct 16, 2008
94
53
At [-Q-], they want to keep the servers full 24/7, and a map that goes over 60MB just kills population, possibly the server, no matter how good it is.

WRONG.

We have Hoodoo, Cranetop, and a slew of other large maps on our main payload server, and it stays full just fine.

Invest in a fast download server, and it's not a problem. Hell, we just put Frontier up on it's own server last night, and it's maxed on population right now - at 93.7mb!

I say make em' as big as you like (as long as they're optimized). If they're solid maps, they'll build a following.