[WiP] cp_tributary

Discussion in 'WIP (Work in Progress)' started by ChronoTriggerFan, Sep 14, 2008.

  1. TheDarkerSideofYourShadow

    TheDarkerSideofYourShadow L10: Glamorous Member

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    I agree with Nine. I liked the previous version I played much more (though the blu spawn is much better now). A has always been a pain to defend, too open with no place to try and set up an SG, making that class useless. B had been somewhat defendable, you could have an sg looking over about half the point from behind the building, though that was easilly taken out by a demo shooting over the ramp to the left. Now that you've removed the half ammo back from there, an engy has to resort to grabbing the 1/4 to the right, which takes far too long to get anything up. I know there are another 1/2 and 1/4 underneath the ramps, but the problem is that an engy ends up too exposed to get those. Also, as a soldier, I was able to take out an SG set up on B from our tunnel, because the building consists of a bunch of holes :-/

    Things that should be changed:
    Maybe roll back the changes to B, and even then something more will have to happen to make it defendable, otherwise its basically gravel pit's A point.
    C needs to be changed. I have no idea why you removed the entrance from the lower level onto the point. That makes it a pain to get up there. You should put this back the way it was.
    Finally, as nine said, the only viable SG place was outside of the red spawn. Heres part of the reason why:
    [​IMG]
     
  2. ChronoTriggerFan

    ChronoTriggerFan L7: Fancy Member

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    I see, what I was doing was trial and error, Since this version was obviously an error, I will correct the mistakes and try again. I'll be focusing on sentry spots now for a8, along with other things I've found wrong from the possible demos I'll be receiving. Thanks for the feedback!
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  3. TheDarkerSideofYourShadow

    TheDarkerSideofYourShadow L10: Glamorous Member

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    Good to hear. I will sometime later try and draw some pictures of what might help (like what I did for nine). Hopefully I'll be able to get something that will really help you.
     
  4. S3BB0_L1C1OUS

    S3BB0_L1C1OUS L3: Member

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    Some screens:

    Teleporters inside spwan room:

    [​IMG]

    It feels like you're able to go around that corner (this view doesn't show it that well), but you can't. Add sth there in the corner to tell the player that he can't go there or add some crates to climp up.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    Fun playing this today. A few issues/suggestions:

    1. It's possible to build in the upper level of the red spawn, right where the doorway comes down.

    2. I think the blue spawn should get more protection from the A hall. Yes, it's similar to Gravel Pit, except on Gravel Pit they're much further away which limits the damage the defenders can do. Right now I think a good demoman could camp the spawn exits from the A hall. Perhaps move the doorway in one direction or have the hall go through at an angle.

    3. There's a lot of small gaps where players can't fit through but can be seen through. An example is along the edge of the water by B. You can swim up under the ledge and get air, but can't actually get onto the surface... it's just slightly too small of a gap. I'd like to see these small gaps closed off or opened up, just to make it obvious where people can move.

    4. There's a bit too much cover at C, and it's far too easy for attackers to get there. It's quite easy for an engineer to set up a forward base under C early in the round and the defenders would never know. It's also a bit confusing. I think you need to simplify the buildings a bit and spread them out. Also consider turning C into a taller structure similar to Gravel Pit. If you don't do that, then completely restrict access to it via the water... force people to expose themselves (heh) before being able to get on the CP.

    5. Too little health. Just a few more small health packs around the map would really help. The water is fine for extinguishing from pyros, so health packs wouldn't factor into that at all. It's just that a good offense would probably require 3 medics as the map stands right now, assuming the defense worked together.

    EDIT: Dammit S3BB0_L1C1OUS... just beat me to it. :)
     
  6. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    Ugh I really felt like I didnt like this map, after the two short games I had on it I had the layout down, just about, but its aweful. Buildings all over the place and the distances between things are frustrating something that looks like you can jump between you can't and the height differences are all yucky, I'm sorry I can't be more specific but I dont know specific things, everything worked on its own but when assembaled together into a whole map just felt crap.

    Capture point A, I didnt like the size of the cap area, I think it should be shortened so that the back of the crates isnt covered to stop attackers just crouching behind them and capping. Also what was with it still capping even if red were standing on it??
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/28746141@N08/3050646265/
     
  7. ChronoTriggerFan

    ChronoTriggerFan L7: Fancy Member

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    Sorry Youme, I really have no idea what your trying to say.

    What's wrong with the buildings all over the place? If you do have a problem with them, such as too much cover, visual blockage, etc, please do speak out, but I can't read your mind here.

    Generally I think thats the players fault for guessing the distance between 2 points wrong. As the map maker I really can't do very much to tell people how far they can jump and still land, thats up to them. If your meaning something completely different and I'm just interpreting this the wrong way, please explain it with more than an abstract sentence.

    Your argument is pretty lame right there. If you do see a specific problem with the layout of it, please do tell, but I'm pretty much getting the feeling your trolling the map rather than providing feedback to help improve cp_tributary and make it a better map.

    Heres a hint; Go load up TF2, in the console type "map cp_tributary_a8" take some pictures, and make a better post telling me what you felt was wrong. If your expecting me to go load up my map, and experience it the same way you did, finding each problem you experienced, Thats a bit too much for anyone to perform except yourself. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying your wrong and tributary is perfect as it is, its far from it. but you've given a post saying very cryptic, unspecific things. I don't know what you found wrong, as said before I can't read minds. By all means help me understand what you've found wrong with tributary, I want to get it balanced easily, not by guessing and getting everything wrong from misunderstanding peoples perception on it, like what happened in tributary_a7.
     
  8. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    I think what he means is there's no specific route to take, when players hit the ground level there's a mish mash of paths to take before entering cap point A. It's hard to get up a specific defence that wont get taken out from afar because of all the corners to shoot from and any one sentry that has any cover is easily ambushed by just one person, let alone several. imo point A should have only one floor and the possibility to defend it from the roof like point B on gravel pit.

    All the buildings look overly cumbersome. Some are fine.. red spawn.. but there's no real size difference which doesn't make your map very interesting. With the same height issues as the first round of my avante map. Point A simply suffers from too many path distractions and corners. A defence is incredibly difficult as it pretty much has to restrict itself within the cap building to keep from being picked off, but is easily wiped out by a sudden full team rush with/or uber.

    A path should be visible and obvious to players, and it shouldn't complicate the gameplay. I found it difficult to traverse the steppings stones partly because of the huge scale that makes things like anticipating jumping distances more difficult than they would normally be. I also found myself bouncing off legde egdes that appeared to be traversable, and only then by the faster classes with jump crouching. Which shouldn't be necassery.

    The "stepping stones" should probably be more "linear", reduce the size of the buildings (like those on Gravelpit point A that scouts can jump over, but not necasserily allow for being able to jump across roof tops (although that would be cool and offer a new dynamic to point a)) and make the stepping stones follow a more obvious path rather than having them appear as generic platforms that look like they could take you anywhere. I can't see what you've changed here as there are no screen shots and steam isn't working for me so i can't check it out for myself even though i just dl'd it....... but that was my experience before a8.

    The thing is there's no real layout as such to be braught to justification for any bad gameplay issues. You've tried in point A to open up possibilities of attack but only trully reduced it with the water. Getting to point A simply feels like a clumsy process. The only solution to this would be to allow players to get back onto the platforms after falling off into the water. They'd get picked off well enough doing this, that is enough punishment. The platforms should also vary in size and shape.. perhaps have a fairly long one and a few odd circular ones at either end. So that players don't have to jump every step to the cap point if they decide to go that way.

    I can't say much for point B as i only saw it once because i got lost underwater. Cap-points wern't made obvious coming out of spawn; the area was unnecasserily huge. This could benefit with a door either side of the spawn leading to either specific cap point, with maybe a hatch in the floor to the last through the water. Maybe give B a slight height advantage, say half a player's height (again, like gravel pit). Add more cover around B as it's very open outside.

    I have to agree with what Youme said even though it wasn't very specific but it takes a lot to explain without being able to grab stuff in hammer and physically show you what would be more appropriate. But ultimately you need to funnel your players more, there are no real kill zones other than the points themselves (which don't specifically get that much attention either after any initial attack to clear out any bulk of defence) and battles end up as one player vs another player all over the place.

    edit: I don't think attackers should be able to get "behind" cap C. There's a lot of distance to traverse before getting around this area. To much oppotunity to walk around it getting kills and not enough emphasise on the need to cap the point. Very sniper friendly for attackers.

    I'll grab paint and some screen shots and go over some things if you would like; when steam starts working again. If you need it explaining more. Sorry for so much text.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2008
  9. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    grazr hit it on the head in clarifying Youme's post, and I agree completely with both of them. There's really a lack of clearly defined paths in the map which leads to every path being of equal importance, which is really confusing. You referred to Gravel Pit a lot when we were playing... the thing about Gravel Pit is that no matter where you are, there are normally 2-3 paths you can choose from. Once you select a path, it takes effort to switch, like going up the left slope toward A. The middle of the slope leading to A is really the only part of the map where there are many options for movement, which is why teams defend B.

    Additionally, if there's a distance that's close to being jumpable, it should be jumpable. If there's a gap that's close to being wide enough to walk through, you should be able to walk through it. Don't make players guess at whether or not they can do something... make it really obvious to them and it allows them to focus on fighting instead of navigating the map.

    Varying heights and building sizes will help as well, since most of the buildings I ran into felt exactly the same. In general A and B buildings should probably be about the same size with C being a different size. That will make it feel more balanced between the points. I also love the idea of being able to crawl out of the water anywhere. :)

    I don't think you need to scrap your map, since some areas are excellent. I just think you need to plan each area a little more and actually draw the main/secondary paths and block off the rest with buildings/rocks/etc.
     
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  10. MrAlBobo

    MrAlBobo L13: Stunning Member

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    no...there is one point that has been clearly player-clipped with absolutely no indication to tell you not to go there
    when i was jumping across the roofs of building I came across it, there was a gap that should have easily been jump able...but there was something invisible blocking it, not really a big issue...but someone brought something similar up

    and im not entirely sure how you managed it...but the map feels open and crowded at the same time...like from some areas you can see everything and sentries are worthless then other times these giant walls just loom over you and it just seems weird...

    and i mentioned this in game...but there is a gap between the gates in the underwater exit from blues spawn, so as a sniper i could still shoot through...
     
  11. ChronoTriggerFan

    ChronoTriggerFan L7: Fancy Member

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    Seeing as the layout is so bugged, no hope of making it work all together, I'm deleting most of the map, saving the terrain, mostly to be reworked anyway. The cap buildings are staying intact, save cap C, I have better plans for that, like making the dam's lower part unreachable by players. Epic brownie points to grazr, making me realize the style of mapping i was trying out (not making pre plans at all and just map it out) still proved to not work >.> Thank god I have thanksgiving break to work on it, as it's still in shambles, not sealed anywhere, and no connecting paths :blushing:
     
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    Last edited: Nov 24, 2008
  12. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    I really respect it when a mapper takes extreme steps like this when something isn't working. I've seen Furyo and Spacemonkey do it with stuff and the end result always turns out nicely. Hope this does too.
     
  13. ChronoTriggerFan

    ChronoTriggerFan L7: Fancy Member

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    If anyone is interested in the progress of the Tributary rebuild, I do happen to be logging it on my blog I'm trying to update it with a report about 9:00 PM MT, so keep an eye out...

    Edit Changing the update time to around 2:45 PM or so, easier on my schedule...
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  14. Void

    aa Void Local Man Unable To Map, Sources Say

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    You know what? You inspired me to actually sketch up some plans for Crowfoot. Seeing other mappers able to delete whole areas, make a layout plan, and keep on trucking makes me feel like I can do the same.


    FYI your map is Sex.
     
  15. Laz

    Laz L7: Fancy Member

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    there's a lot of open room, and while with a full server it might be better, people will still be spread over the map, with another part respawning. I wouldn't delete parts, but yet block them off somehow, so they aren't accesible, but still provide scenery to give the map more depth.
     
  16. ChronoTriggerFan

    ChronoTriggerFan L7: Fancy Member

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    Now heres the thing, I'm not totally disagreeing, but I did take some basic size measurements from a decompiled version of gravelpit. What i'm guessing gives RED the ability to defend is the amount of open space, but I could always be wrong, playtesting will reveal problems and remember those pics are still WiP, i'm making a new post about them with the progress i made yesterday.