Why do you not like CTF?
- Thread starter MegapiemanPHD
- Start date
CTF to me is boring as its just not rewarding as everything is counter productive:
Either the map is easy and the intel gets capped alot. But when that happens, going fully defensive wont matter as they will eventualy still take your defenses down.
Or the map is too hard and you cant even take the intel away.
Most games have much better counter systems to stop the capture progress. In tf2 when you kill the capper you need to defend the intel. Try doing that in the middle or the enemy base. It will at most delay the capture. This gives the only option to defend it within your own base.
Rarely it happens that it keeps an interesting slow but effective progress on the flag where eventualy it will return to its base or gets capped. Too often the result is already clear withing 30 seconds after you died.
Not to mention that there allways should be someone at the back to defend or you can easily get a ninja capture (counter productive for good pushing teamwork), If you have a very stable but solid line of defense it would require just 1 ninja grab moment to get the intel into that defense line. As suddenly you can focus on 1 point on that defense the intel gets through fast. The solid line of defense which can only be formed with good teamwork is useless.
And last, intel positions behind the spawn are bad due to being required to battle it twice.
And you dont want to get a task that is boring. Defending is most of the time boring! Either nothing happens, or you are losing anyway.
In mannpower they tried to fix that by bringing it back to the classic ctf style where touching the flag instantly returns it. This allows for a quicker game and at the same time allows for a weaker defense since once its taken, its not lost. In the above examples the issues mainly get countered:
- A hard to cap map just makes more people focus on attacking.
- An easy map focusses more on defense, and they can even move the defense to a more ideal spot. Once defended the intel returns
This already balances out the easy/hard map variety by making it more stable on what the outcome will be. but then there are still the following:
- If you created a stable defense line, even if the intel gets taken. It still has to get past this line.
- You dont have to waste time defending the intel at some random spot. Touch it and you can continue.
- Even if not defending or attacking, you are still fully involved in the outcome of the battle as killing the capper (by random) but not taking the intel is enough for the objective based players to find you usefull as they will just take it instead.
The intel behind the spawn will only become stronger at this effect as instead of just being killed on the return path, the intel is also instantly returned.
Either the map is easy and the intel gets capped alot. But when that happens, going fully defensive wont matter as they will eventualy still take your defenses down.
Or the map is too hard and you cant even take the intel away.
Most games have much better counter systems to stop the capture progress. In tf2 when you kill the capper you need to defend the intel. Try doing that in the middle or the enemy base. It will at most delay the capture. This gives the only option to defend it within your own base.
Rarely it happens that it keeps an interesting slow but effective progress on the flag where eventualy it will return to its base or gets capped. Too often the result is already clear withing 30 seconds after you died.
Not to mention that there allways should be someone at the back to defend or you can easily get a ninja capture (counter productive for good pushing teamwork), If you have a very stable but solid line of defense it would require just 1 ninja grab moment to get the intel into that defense line. As suddenly you can focus on 1 point on that defense the intel gets through fast. The solid line of defense which can only be formed with good teamwork is useless.
And last, intel positions behind the spawn are bad due to being required to battle it twice.
And you dont want to get a task that is boring. Defending is most of the time boring! Either nothing happens, or you are losing anyway.
In mannpower they tried to fix that by bringing it back to the classic ctf style where touching the flag instantly returns it. This allows for a quicker game and at the same time allows for a weaker defense since once its taken, its not lost. In the above examples the issues mainly get countered:
- A hard to cap map just makes more people focus on attacking.
- An easy map focusses more on defense, and they can even move the defense to a more ideal spot. Once defended the intel returns
This already balances out the easy/hard map variety by making it more stable on what the outcome will be. but then there are still the following:
- If you created a stable defense line, even if the intel gets taken. It still has to get past this line.
- You dont have to waste time defending the intel at some random spot. Touch it and you can continue.
- Even if not defending or attacking, you are still fully involved in the outcome of the battle as killing the capper (by random) but not taking the intel is enough for the objective based players to find you usefull as they will just take it instead.
The intel behind the spawn will only become stronger at this effect as instead of just being killed on the return path, the intel is also instantly returned.
Are you talking about TC or CTF (or both)? Fixed that for you, in bold.
Tupperwits
L2: Junior Member
- Sep 24, 2012
- 62
- 15
The winning formula for popular gamemodes are the feedback loops and game mechanics that encourage the end game with a victory and a defeat.
If nobody did anything on Payload a team would still win. In Ctf one capture is no different from the next. Your reward for capturing is a temporary crit boost. Your reward for defending is to simply not lose. Current CTF game mechanics do nothing to prevent stalemates.
The flag is such a unique objective I see so much potential in it. We just haven't perfected a game mode that works properly with its unpredictable nature. (I know the HUD points to it but it's still not as easy to find a stationary control point)
If nobody did anything on Payload a team would still win. In Ctf one capture is no different from the next. Your reward for capturing is a temporary crit boost. Your reward for defending is to simply not lose. Current CTF game mechanics do nothing to prevent stalemates.
The flag is such a unique objective I see so much potential in it. We just haven't perfected a game mode that works properly with its unpredictable nature. (I know the HUD points to it but it's still not as easy to find a stationary control point)
- Aug 6, 2014
- 1,056
- 535
- Aug 6, 2014
- 1,056
- 535
Okay, I'm sorry
But in my defense, that was the first time I've ever heard anyone call anyone out for an OCD joke, ever.
Literally. That may seem like I'm saying: "Oh well, you're wrong, go eff yourself", but those kinds of jokes have become so common, that I just thought that basically everyone accepted them by now.
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CTF is bad because people don't make CTF maps, they make DM maps and add a Flag. Also the reset time on Flags is really really long and stupid in TF2. It needs to be changed to something like 10 seconds, and when allies stand near it it goes home faster, that way promoting a much more aggressive style of gameplay. And that the enemy can still cap while their flag is away, that is really bad and contradictory of team gameplay. Another problem of CTF is the Engineer class, it stops any class from entering a certain area, limiting the effects of fast, skill-based classes with a autogun. Don't even get me started on Minisentries.
It is a bad thing on maps where caps happen fast, but on maps with hard enough capture progress it is fine to me. There can still happen alot in those moments.
Either you cap first and get the critbonus first, meaning you can wipe out half the enemy team.
Or you cap second and get your team thinned out. You still get the capture but you gain less because you were slower. The setback at least isnt as harsh.
And in some cases people just delay their capture until their team was respawned or when they are again heading for the intel so you can deliver a heavy counter punch.
It involves enough tactics for slow capture systems.
Only when captures happen fast that system is good to slow down the captures. Especialy since a 3v2 capture finish in such way is rare in tf2. Many times its 3v1 or 3v0 because 1 team is generaly stronger, and with such systems to prevent capture you are more likely to make it worse (they finaly manage to get the intel out as losing team, but they still cant cap).
With fast captures a 3v2 can happen very fast as both intels could be constantly away. Where in tf2 the scout in such case would dominate it would also be a huge downside since why would a heavy take the intel if it slows your team down? In such case having the flag is a good system to stall an enemy capture. The heavy in this case is also a better protection which in such situations are more important.
Balance has alot of features and you cant just blame it on 1 part. Most ctf maps in tf2 have multiple problems:
Easy to defend, hard to push (only good teams will ever get a chance to win since with 2 noob teams expect the intel covered by 3 sentries)
Capturing once boosts chaining captures making comebacks alot harder (and for weaker teams its devestating)
Maps are often flawed where classes cant realy perform their roles, as everything is just a bottleneck.
Maps dont promote attacking once you are 2v0 behind. It focusses on defense since its far more beneficial as the stalemate eventualy will happen on anything except a 24/7 server. And as defending is alot easier its the way to go.
- Dec 21, 2008
- 288
- 638
Well, maybe someone tried it before but I set up a "classic" ctf match with capture zone disable when flag is not in base and a force return when you reach your own flag. I will propose this for frosty b3 and we will discuss about that.
I prefer this kind of ctf but this can put some "exploit" like a team keeping ennemi flag near their spawn to avoid the other to cap but this could be part of the teamplay.
I prefer this kind of ctf but this can put some "exploit" like a team keeping ennemi flag near their spawn to avoid the other to cap but this could be part of the teamplay.
Perhaps the reason you can cap while flag is away is because having to return the other flag would cause people to create ridiculous engi nests to protect a flag carrier.. Not fun for anyone really.
Except with insta return as spy you just have to backstab the engy and make 1 step forward to return it. And regardless of engy nest size, it eventualy will just happen.
And before you get to that state... you still need to take the enemy flag which with huge engy nests you wont. Its an acceptable stalemate to me.
But its also the problem of the engineer class itself, not of the gamemode. The same thing counts for EVERY map that exists. Dustbowl with 5 sentries also isnt fun.
wareya
L420: High Member
- Jun 17, 2012
- 493
- 191
Insta return is a bandaid solution to stalemates that occur when you can only cap if your own flag is at the base. The rationale for only capping if your own flag is at your base is that for games with overpowered movement it prevents the gamemode from being nothing but leakage. TF2 does not have this problem. TF2 does not need these mechanics. The shot-clock flag pickup that valve added is fine.
wareya
L420: High Member
- Jun 17, 2012
- 493
- 191
Okay, so:
- Prevent it from being capped (duh)
- Make it so that they hold into it for less time than they don't hold onto it
- ????
- Flag will eventually return to base!
That's how the shot clock setting works. If you don't know about it you probably shouldn't be running around telling people how to make their CTF maps or anything along those lines.
- Prevent it from being capped (duh)
- Make it so that they hold into it for less time than they don't hold onto it
- ????
- Flag will eventually return to base!
That's how the shot clock setting works. If you don't know about it you probably shouldn't be running around telling people how to make their CTF maps or anything along those lines.
Except there is no progress when they can never get the intel out of the enemy base. And the reason for that is because when its too easy there is no point in defending and it becomes a scout rush. So you had to be able to defend that room, and once 2 sentries are already enough to stop 90% of the players. 5 sentries make it nearly impossible. And without progress a game becomes boring.
The instareturn system allows much more progress to happen as it can simply make it harder to defend without it feeling out of place.
As i mentioned earlier you can have a deadlock situation with 5 sentry nests in each room because both teams have the intel. It normaly would stall progress just as bad. But even in this situation its less stalemate bringing:
Normaly you need to run in the intel room, pick up the intel and run away (which even as spy wont work).
With insta return you only need to kill the enemy, run to the intel and touch it. With with some classes can happen alot easier (spy). You dont even need to perform the backstab yourself. A sniper might have taken out the engy and the spy can just drop on the intel.
Obviously, the 2nd cap you still get the same system, but as mentioned already. You can make the map easier so even 5 sentries will still have many flaws in defending by for example having 3 very usefull entrances where 1 entrance will only have a primary defense with 1 sentry.
It also means that once a flag is taken you dont directly need to track it (which with 3 exits would become harder). You might in the meantime also take the enemy flag and do the same.
Tf2's ctf cap system to me is just heavily flawed and doesnt feel rewarding at all.
Note that a game that constantly ends 3v2 and nearly allways gets won is still more interesting than a game that is constantly 0v0 or 0v1 with a stalemate. With 3v2 you also have the indication that you simply should be faster than the enemy team.