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- Feb 18, 2009
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We have an IRC, and here is why you should use it.
- Thread starter Fruity Snacks
- Start date
- Status
Will highlander do?
Only reason I ask is because 1) I don't know 6v6 well, but I know highlander enough to host an event/lobby. 2) highlander can include more people
So earlier today, when we were like 8 people in the chat, the topic of IRC came up and we had a little 30min discussion. I have picked out the main arguments that I keep hearing, both today and previously and tried to put forward my take on them in a better way than one line responses.
Here's a link to the full chatlog, so you can see if I picked quotes out of context or whatever (why would I?) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/2012-04/irctalk.txt
#1 "Steam is more convenient than IRC"
When I argue for IRC, I'm not against "Steam", I'm against "Steam group chat".
I'm not telling you to stop using your steam friends list.
With that in mind: Group chatting is easier and more convenient in IRC, as it's simply a protocol, not a program like steam. Meaning you can connect through almost any device with a internet connection.
As for convenience, Steam group chat requires 1) Installed Steam. 2) a Steam account, if you have steam guard enabled, you need to verify yourself on every new computer (such as School PC's). 3) You need to have made a purchase on Steam to group chat. A weapon in tf2 is enough but still a barrier.
For Webchat IRC you need: 1) Any web browser.
For a IRC client you need 1) Installed IRC client. 2) Configure it once.
Everyone who comes to our chat probably has Steam installed and have a bought game on Steam also. So I'm not putting IRC on some pedestal claiming it's far more convenient for our users. But in general terms, it is.
Steam-specific pro's in terms of convenience:
Most likely Steam is already running and ready for use on our home PC's.
IRC-specific pro's in terms of convenience:
Accessible from any computer with a internet connection.
Server-wide crashes never happen, what can happen instead is netsplits, the channel will always be online though. (google "netsplit" for further info. In short: a server network consist of many servers, you connect through one of these, in the event of a netsplit you and other people on that server get isolated from the other users on the other servers until the isolated server can restore connection)
Conclusion: Both options are convenient in their own way, neither really has a strong advantage.
#2 "Setting up IRC is hard"
Getting a IRC client to work takes about as much effort as it takes to install any other program on your computer.
Some clients are easier to install and use than others. The more complex ones are obviously more powerful/customizable, but the thing is you do get to choose for yourself. You can even choose to not install any client.
The link on our website uses a steam:// link, similarly adding a irc:// link would be easy. However, the more practical solution would be to just link the webchat http:// url straight away.
Conclusion: Setting up IRC is just as hard as you choose to make it for yourself. Almost all clients only ask for 2 basic settings to be filled in: nickname and server. Finding our IRC channel would be exactly the same as finding our steamchat.
#3 "Webchat IRC is worse than Steam group chat"
Webchat IRC is a very slimmed down version of a typical client. It's true that it has only basic functionality, I don't see where it's worse than Steam group chat.
I would need more information to debate this standpoint.
#4 "IRC is ugly and lacks steam-specific features"
First off: Nothing is stopping you from making your IRC client display an entire rainbow of color every time you start it. Amount of customization depends on the client, but I assure you, colorful IRC is more than possible.
As for steam specific features, like I said earlier, I'm not saying you should stop using Steam and Steam Friends.
If there was interest, installing plugins to irc bots that mimic many of the avilable steam features is possible. I just haven't done it because there's no interest so far.
The only thing I can think of that would be off-limits to bots is initiating steam trades, as far as I know there is no API for that.
Using IRC through the Steam Overlay can be a hassle, but it's certainly possible to open the webchat through the Steam overlay browser.
Personally though I rarely use the overlay, as putting IRC on a secondary monitor/laptop/tablet/smartphone is better. If that isn't an option, just alt+tabbing out of the game really isn't that bad. Still, I'll admit that Steam chats are quicker to access in the steam overlay, but it's possible to IRC there too.
#5 "I'm not moving until everyone else moves"
This one is the most problematic!
It's a paradox where the individuals in a group aren't against a change, but the group as a whole are.
Each and every person has to move themselves one at a time... When I talk to people they're generally not against the idea of using IRC, but they're drawn to the larger group of people.
#6 "Steam group chat is good enough"
I'd say Steam group chat doesn't do it's job. It's supposed to be a nice simple group chat, but it explodes on a near daily basis, disconnecting everyone in secret and then doesn't reconnect people automatically (what we refer to as ghostchat). It tends to get away with spamming the crap out of the chat with automated join messages, It gets super slow and unstable if left open for long periods of time since it stores all the text in RAM. Admin options in steam are minimal, it's really the most basic tools you can imagine, punishing people for bad behavior is more work than it's worth, so a lot of shit happens without consequence.
So the point I'm always making in these discussion is: Why cling to something terrible when a better option exists.
There is actually a reason most communities use IRC over the various alternatives..
Here's a link to the full chatlog, so you can see if I picked quotes out of context or whatever (why would I?) http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/2012-04/irctalk.txt
#1 "Steam is more convenient than IRC"
When I argue for IRC, I'm not against "Steam", I'm against "Steam group chat".
I'm not telling you to stop using your steam friends list.
With that in mind: Group chatting is easier and more convenient in IRC, as it's simply a protocol, not a program like steam. Meaning you can connect through almost any device with a internet connection.
As for convenience, Steam group chat requires 1) Installed Steam. 2) a Steam account, if you have steam guard enabled, you need to verify yourself on every new computer (such as School PC's). 3) You need to have made a purchase on Steam to group chat. A weapon in tf2 is enough but still a barrier.
For Webchat IRC you need: 1) Any web browser.
For a IRC client you need 1) Installed IRC client. 2) Configure it once.
Everyone who comes to our chat probably has Steam installed and have a bought game on Steam also. So I'm not putting IRC on some pedestal claiming it's far more convenient for our users. But in general terms, it is.
Steam-specific pro's in terms of convenience:
Most likely Steam is already running and ready for use on our home PC's.
IRC-specific pro's in terms of convenience:
Accessible from any computer with a internet connection.
Server-wide crashes never happen, what can happen instead is netsplits, the channel will always be online though. (google "netsplit" for further info. In short: a server network consist of many servers, you connect through one of these, in the event of a netsplit you and other people on that server get isolated from the other users on the other servers until the isolated server can restore connection)
Conclusion: Both options are convenient in their own way, neither really has a strong advantage.
#2 "Setting up IRC is hard"
Getting a IRC client to work takes about as much effort as it takes to install any other program on your computer.
Some clients are easier to install and use than others. The more complex ones are obviously more powerful/customizable, but the thing is you do get to choose for yourself. You can even choose to not install any client.
The link on our website uses a steam:// link, similarly adding a irc:// link would be easy. However, the more practical solution would be to just link the webchat http:// url straight away.
Conclusion: Setting up IRC is just as hard as you choose to make it for yourself. Almost all clients only ask for 2 basic settings to be filled in: nickname and server. Finding our IRC channel would be exactly the same as finding our steamchat.
#3 "Webchat IRC is worse than Steam group chat"
14:49 - Aly: Well yes, you would be correct. But IRC web chat is worse than this chat
Webchat IRC is a very slimmed down version of a typical client. It's true that it has only basic functionality, I don't see where it's worse than Steam group chat.
I would need more information to debate this standpoint.
#4 "IRC is ugly and lacks steam-specific features"
First off: Nothing is stopping you from making your IRC client display an entire rainbow of color every time you start it. Amount of customization depends on the client, but I assure you, colorful IRC is more than possible.
As for steam specific features, like I said earlier, I'm not saying you should stop using Steam and Steam Friends.
If there was interest, installing plugins to irc bots that mimic many of the avilable steam features is possible. I just haven't done it because there's no interest so far.
The only thing I can think of that would be off-limits to bots is initiating steam trades, as far as I know there is no API for that.
Using IRC through the Steam Overlay can be a hassle, but it's certainly possible to open the webchat through the Steam overlay browser.
Personally though I rarely use the overlay, as putting IRC on a secondary monitor/laptop/tablet/smartphone is better. If that isn't an option, just alt+tabbing out of the game really isn't that bad. Still, I'll admit that Steam chats are quicker to access in the steam overlay, but it's possible to IRC there too.
#5 "I'm not moving until everyone else moves"
This one is the most problematic!
It's a paradox where the individuals in a group aren't against a change, but the group as a whole are.
Each and every person has to move themselves one at a time... When I talk to people they're generally not against the idea of using IRC, but they're drawn to the larger group of people.
#6 "Steam group chat is good enough"
I'd say Steam group chat doesn't do it's job. It's supposed to be a nice simple group chat, but it explodes on a near daily basis, disconnecting everyone in secret and then doesn't reconnect people automatically (what we refer to as ghostchat). It tends to get away with spamming the crap out of the chat with automated join messages, It gets super slow and unstable if left open for long periods of time since it stores all the text in RAM. Admin options in steam are minimal, it's really the most basic tools you can imagine, punishing people for bad behavior is more work than it's worth, so a lot of shit happens without consequence.
So the point I'm always making in these discussion is: Why cling to something terrible when a better option exists.
There is actually a reason most communities use IRC over the various alternatives..
Swap the steam chat link for an IRC chat link. Drop all mention of the steam chat. Mute the steam chat. Any time anyone enters, post "Here is our IRC chat" and the weblink. FORCE people to move.
I like steam group chat because it's 2 clicks away, it's integrated into my existing software setup and everyone who's anyone is in it. IRC is a pain to setup for something that i'd only use for 1 reason and idle in even more than steam chat at that; and the UI is less than intuitive for anyone other than the most experienced or software literate.
These may not hold much weight in the arguement in terms of reliability and i agree, but it's enough for me to forgo it at the moment. People are still able to contact me under anything but the most unfortunate circumstances (cloud downtime), but then cloud downtime affects our server as well so IRC would only really be used briefly to gossip about how we all know steamchat is still a temporamental turd.
Maybe half of this is me being lazy, but i would be more inclined if more people actually used IRC, especially non-TF2m members, then i would see more merit in it.
These may not hold much weight in the arguement in terms of reliability and i agree, but it's enough for me to forgo it at the moment. People are still able to contact me under anything but the most unfortunate circumstances (cloud downtime), but then cloud downtime affects our server as well so IRC would only really be used briefly to gossip about how we all know steamchat is still a temporamental turd.
Maybe half of this is me being lazy, but i would be more inclined if more people actually used IRC, especially non-TF2m members, then i would see more merit in it.
i was just thinking about having a "USE IRC DAY"
You can use web irc and not install ANYTHING. Stop using "I don't want to install a new program" as an argument because it isn't one. The link to Steam chat can be replaced to a link to web chat that functions entirely the same.
I would use your irc if I could talk to you guys in real time without getting really really angry, believe me. I might idle in the channel again anyway.
I would use your irc if I could talk to you guys in real time without getting really really angry, believe me. I might idle in the channel again anyway.
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