Sorry for the delay, but there were 30 entries and I felt obliged to give feedback on each of them. Some I've already posted my thoughts on at feedback.tf2maps.net but mostly I just wrote up what I though of them here. These are of course all my opinion, and you know what that means, trust your expert opinion to hear what myself and others are saying and adjust things the way you think you should to try solve our problems, and if you don't think you should adjust things, ask yourself why. If you don't think you have an expert opinion and are willing to just do what people want, then you're never going to revolutionize anything.
cp_aly:
The map played well on just about every round that it saw, the first point goes down after half the time allotted and the second goes down only 2/3 of the time - which by definition of a/d makes the map seem very good. I just didn't enjoy it all that much. Defending first was pretty great honestly, attacking first seemed /okay/, defending second seemed kinda dull, and attacking second seemed okay. I felt like defending second was dull I guess because I couldn't really make pushes out into the controlled areas without getting shot in the back from the massive space near the first point. The only thing I could do defending second was clear the bottom room near the dropdown, but then no one went in there since I would kill them all the time
. Perhaps give a small buff to defenders on the side where the long low hall is on second, so that I can defend there in a safer position (perhaps not defend the hall, per se, but just stay over in that area for a longer period of time). Also perhaps make it easier to jump from the spawn area to the base up near the traintracks with all the windows that blue uses as a forward - I can clear it out occasionally but it never really feels that satisfying cause blue just runs down the lengthy bridges and then they're too far away for me to attack. So maybe that's an issue too: make it appear safer for blue to build up and stay in the area just before the bridge (from defender perspective) so I dont attack and then not feel satisfied doing so. So yeah, overall it was made very well, and fits the definition of a "good" a/d map, but I can't say I had many satisfying fights playing on the map.
Technical: A
Fun: B
Total: 87 + 77 / 2 = 82
koth_alex76:
we mentioned in-game that the side routes could use improving and can be by directing them more towards the middle bits instead of just bypassing them. speaking of which, the middle area did feel like it was hard to take back because none of the entrances felt like a viable option to takedown people on those side ramps up near the crates.
Technical: B
Fun: B
Total: 75 + 75 / 2 = 75
arena_bakscratch:
The only game I played on this had six players total including me, which played alright. I felt the sightlines across mid were pretty scary (you see a sniper on the other side, you get away as fast as you can) and I felt the upstairs areas were pretty dominating. We voted to extend the time when we played so we played for a while, and the leading strategy was to go up from spawn, across the beams, and directly to the protected-height-with-healthpacks upstairs areas and just find and kill the people on the ground. It was a cool place to roam around but the sightlines were pretty killer, no pun intended, and the upper floor was pretty OP (I'd just re/move the healthpacks from up there - there was a lot of health). It was detailed pretty nicely but the observer cams were hard to tell apart since the bases looked basically the same from a high perspective (the roofs would then take up 60% of the scene).
Technical: A
Fun: B-
Total: 83 + 73 / 2 = 78
cp_bereth:
I wrote my opinion of the map in feedback a while ago but then you didn't change much of anything to combat that opinion, so mine is essentially the same as it was the first time I tested it: it's too open, it's too hard to attack last, the only reason last ever gets capped is cause red is disinterested in defending (they got bored), first is okay cause its different - we need different strategies to cap it.
Technical: C-
Fun: C
Total: 63 + 65 / 2 = 64
arena_berry:
it's a joke map and it's just like your last joke map! so I guess I feel obliged to give my opinion: it's boring, it doesn't really incorporate tf2 gameplay (its medieval mode?). you're missing textures, yadda yadda, its meh, I dont enjoy it.
Technical: C-
Fun: D-
Total: 61 + 52 / 2 = 56.5
cp_berry:
I suppose overall it was bad, but sorta okay. First was actually not that bad, I wasn't a big fan of the one-way door that had no visibilty from either side that led directly to the point. It meant that someone could shoot you in the back without you even knowing they were there, or that you could flank second in a hearbeat and not be stopped at all easily (otherwise, first was okay). Attacking second was pretty lame cause it was hard and throwing myself at the enemy sentries through the shitty opening you gave me out of the one-way door sucked, attacking the cliff side route sucked cause you're always at a disadvantage - you can even just as easily be knocked off the side by a pyro. Defending second I saw some scouts who took the lower route and managed to get a kill before they died, but then they kept just dying in the same spots anyway. The game never changed on second - it was always just blue smacking their faces into red and dying. I've read a bit about good games (and noticed the good maps) have a 'meta' where everyone playing notices the leading advantage, and then everyone attempts to do that, and then someone else sees this and trys a counter advantage and beats the original strategy. It would keep looping and the 'meta' would keep shifting - which creates a lot of discussion and a lot of fun things for the player to figure out. The first point on this map sorta has that - its pretty hard to exit first without an uber, perhaps make it easier to attack; but second on this map doesn't have that 'meta' of game changing rules seemingly at all (at least in the tests I played in) which made it just boring. I'd recommend trying to figure out a way to introduce new strategies for the attacking team. If this is a first stage of many for the map, then obviously scale it appropriately.
Technical: C
Fun: C
Total: 66 + 63 / 2 = 64.5
pl_crash:
Overall it played alright, the detail of first was really great for 72 hours, the ice looks awesome. I like the ideas that you used for the forward spawn as well. Last played the best out of the points, but contrariwise first got boring the fastest. I guess what I didn't like about it was that all the exits coming out of the spawn felt sorta lackluster. perhaps make the dock route end higher up (cause it starts higher up) so blue has some interesting ground to cover if they want. I could definitly see some cool-ass 3d skybox with fog and beacons and things making me feel like it was a hostile and far-away oasis out in the cold that blue wanted to bring down, so yeah, it has potential to be cooler.
Technical: A+
Fun: B-
Total: 92 + 74 / 2 = 83
cp_dark:
I left feedback notes on how I felt about a lot of it so I won't need to recap it here, but overall it felt too linear, like someone mentioned in-game that the only routes onto C were chokes! and also it was too difficult to push past the route under the glass windows (I think that was B?).
Technical: C+
Fun: C
Total: 68 + 65 / 2 = 66.5
cp_fish:
other people's opinions of this seemed to be that it was chokey, and it did resemble dustbowl a lot, but I enjoyed it enough. I'd say first stage was great other than the really easy way to red respawn from the right flank for blue on 1-2. 2-1 was pretty great honestly, it had the cool lower flank that gave positions to take out the sentries but funneled all the spam so it was risky to take, the high route was longer so took more time to traverse. 2-2 was pretty funky though, blue never really seemed to take it. I'd make the right flank for blue (the long hallway with the small medpack) more noticeble cause it wasn't at first - it didn't attract many people down that route. I'd also increase red respawntime on 2-2, cause it was an endless stream of red guys there. I liked the cool ideas you had, I liked how well it played, I didn't really like the huge doors that opened and closed rapidly and destroyed my rockets as I retreated after I shot, I didn't really like 2-2, otherwise it was good.
Technical: B+
Fun: B
Total: 79 + 76 / 2 = 77.5
cp_frozen:
2nd is too lengthy, and it stalemated since ownership of the points went back and forth about six times. Maybe Im crazy for liking those things (cause I seem to on other maps) but honestly I had a lot of fun playing it. Maybe someone should make a gamemode where you have to constantly retake points in a linear map, throw all the "reject" 5cap maps into that and then get a cool-ass server going. Back to the point though, yeah it was fun, I liked attacking last a lot, I liked that the high route that lead up to it only lead to the high area of the front room, which meant that you could get a hold of the base but if you wanted to push forwards more you'd need to decide if you wanted to go super low or through the front door, which took a lot of guessing and planning which was tons of fun. I'm not sure of the ways of the breaking of stalemates, but perhaps shortening 2nd, and slightly increasing spawn wave times of people on last (by a second or something) could crush the stalemates (Im sure there's a better way, but there's an idea. maybe talk to Phi about 5cap, he's good at that).
Technical: B+
Fun: A-
Total: 78 + 82 / 2 = 80
koth_fredrik:
there was a lack of focus in the map, the routes didnt flow to the point and there were lots of little sideways routes that seemed dangerous and silly. the geometry for buildings also could use some refinement; it was kinda clunky. it seemed that whoever capped mid was not able to secure it for very long unless they could push out and spawn camp the other team, which they managed to do fairly easily it seemed - without repercussion. that could have been the players during the tests though, so that might not be your fault.
Technical: B-
Fun: B-
Total: 73 + 73 / 2 = 73
koth_garuda:
Pretty cool map, but hard to stay alive in mid, or on the point. Im not sure anyone understood the door mechanic. Not many people seem go to the bridge (opposite of point) side of the map, I think its cause no one really notices it, they know it exists but their eye will catch a glimpse of the point-route and no alternatives. seems too easy for one team to just ruin the other's offensive, maybe they can get too good a hold on the enemy base. hard to make use of demoman weapons, there arent many places where im lower than my target, just the bridges which are sniper/spy territory which isnt that exciting for a demoman to take care of. make bridge area more action-y, clip things like the spawn door steps, organise flow better, make mechanic make sense or remove it.
Technical: B-
Fun: C+
Total: 72 + 69 / 2 = 70.5
koth_grizzly:
the middle area was too hard to retake it seemed, I was always on the team that controlled mid so I cant say that for certain but I heard it a few times from the opposing players so either Im 2good4them, they're 2bad4me, or the map is at fault. enough jokes, I liked the middle, but I thought the roof above the point was too overpowered, it could see the entire middle section and you were well out of view from most entrances into the middle room. I like the middle top, but maybe just make it more accessable somehow, not sure. or like granary and make it so you could get up to those high heights of the side areas faster and safer potentially.
Technical: B+
Fun: B-
Total: 78 + 72 / 2 = 75
cp_icecrystal:
its okay. defending last seems to suck cause it seems one of the doors doesnt work - the door that leads from spawn to the room holding the final capture point, not sure if that was intentional. Also I think the same spawnroom is broken earlier in the map, like you can enter into it as red but you cant leave until first is capped, something along those lines. The map plays alright overall, it lead us in the right directions, so it plays better than Steel in my opinion, but maybe that first capture point was a little bit too inspired by Steel cause it looks sorta just like it but ends up playing worse. I think I got bored at one point, which is usually a sign that the map lacks height, and stressfullness (things that interest me, as well as a few others) so keep those two things in mind (cp_blorav does those excellently imo).
Technical: C+
Fun: C+
Total: 68 + 68 / 2 = 68
cp_idolon:
I heard you want this taken seriously sorta, or at least you want some sorta-serious feedback on it, but nobody seemed to play it seriously. When I played it, we all instinctively went medieval mode and just had demoknight fights since the map was silly by definition. If you're looking for feedback on the gamemode, I'd say it's an interesting idea but makes most of the map irrelvant if the last point to capture is far to the left or right. It could have just been the small number of players at the time, but at the time it just felt like silly wasted space. I guess it was an okay idea, and I did laugh at the sillyness of the map, but that's about it really.
Technical: C
Fun: C
Total: 65 + 65 / 2 = 65
ctf_Kaptunkul:
upstairs was overpowered, but too dark and hard to find. cool idea, it worked out well once people knew what was going on, but then as we really started to get a hang of it, it became too hard for blue to win unless red was distracted by breaking the map boundaries along the fences outside.
Technical: B-
Fun: C+
Total: 72 + 68 / 2 = 70
ctf_karmapolice:
It's a bit cramped, and the huge change in colours of going from lower blue to lower red is horrendous on the eyes, but overall I enjoyed playing on the map. I liked that since it was tight indoors you compensated and gave us more healthpacks! I liked the map layout in general, and I liked that we had tons of options as we ran with the flag through hostile enemy territory, but those many routes also seemed to give the attacking team many places to hide and make it difficult for the defenders to even exit their base after the point was capped. I might even suggest making it so the defenders get a small amount of crits when the attackers plant the flag, just to help clear out the foes left in your base. It was fun, hectic, but maybe a bit too cramped in areas (the truck area outfront comes to mind). Also you probably could have detailed it slightly unless you were really short on time.
Technical: B
Fun: A
Total: 75 + 88 / 2 = 81.5
cp_leprecan:
The map had some weird linear gameplay going on, cause there were sniper sightlines that could see every entrance route going to last - which made it impossible for blue to push forward - which made red able to keep first even after they lost it - which made the map get boring pretty quickly. I liked first though, I liked the fast dangerous stairwell up high next to the point, it was tense holding that even as demoman (who is supposed to be good at that stuff) so you're doing somethign right with that. the ramps leading to the high areas of second were also kinda meh, it seemed almost innapropriate to give someone on blue such an easy route that completely overlooked last, so I'd say make that more difficult for blue to take - give red a way up - make it more of a power position for red to take. Overall it got boring cause second was kinda broken but first was neat so it wasn't bad.
Technical: C+
Fun: C+
Total: 68 + 68 / 2 = 68
cp_mlj:
cool geometry, but its too much ground to cover in general. the middle route was interesting that it doesn't fully open until the associated capture points are as well. it ends up being a cool forward base for blue, but red seemed to also be able to simply take it and just ruin blue's hope to take C. C also capped instantly, which Im sure you know by now.
Technical: B
Fun: C
Total: 75 + 65 / 2 = 70
pl_player:
The map was pretty dark everywhere, which was lame cause it made it really hard to see snipers and spys and hard to tell my team from the enemy team, but it also looked pretty dang cool. I wish you could have cool looks + doesnt ruin gameplay but apparently we can't. The geometry of the map was interesting, I liked the areas that we fought though. But as YM said in one of the playtests, the gameplay seemed to be a constant push to the end - which was okay, but it seemed red was never able to defend a point until last which would just fall slower than the others. Also your dang final point hole thing was uncovered and I think it killed like ten people every round who accidentally fell in, it was pretty annoying. :|
Technical: B-
Fun: B
Total: 72 + 78 / 2 = 75
koth_roflman:
actually a pretty neat idea for a koth map for 'prep up'. I feel like the second stage was a bit flat in the middle area around the point, like as a heavy you could drop down into that section but had no protection against snipers anywhere (except using your medic as a human shield). I liked the side route that went onto the roof building near the point - that was fun to jump up and over. I liked the idea that the first stage counted the clock down faster - you could make the first stage harder to cap (cause it was easily spammed) and then just pump up the timer it ticks down (like from 2 seconds to 4 seconds, or something like that).
Technical: B
Fun: C+
Total: 75 + 67 / 2 = 71
cp_squintik:
I found it kinda boring to be honest, you wait for the capture point to open and that's realy it for like 4 minutes? yeah, kinda boring, nothing really happens or even seems to really matter up until then since you can just make a solid push after sitting in spawn for four minutes, or make a solid push for four minutes and then just not do enough in that last moment where it counts. I guess if that's what you were going for - good job, but eh.
Technical: B
Fun: D+
Total: 76 + 58 / 2 = 67
plr_taka:
The opening of the map is a neat idea, I really like that everybody seems to immedietly recognize what's going on and and that stressful one minute of "lol, well, what do I do?" is pretty funny and fun. Beyond the first minute of setup time and the game plays out into an open flat plate of food you dont really like that much but eat anyway cause you dont want to make your host think his food is bad. the first area is really open, the last area is really open, the middle of the track area isnt that open but its still on the edge of the map and theres a ton of walkways above it no one seemed to use. the open areas in the setup area go unused completely after the start of the round, which is kinda silly. you should make the cart track loop back on itself like a u-turn and go right past the setup area again. also cut down on the length of the map - it was too big which made the map not feel focused. edit: I feel like this isn't enough information, I posted a lot of how I felt in your feedback thread though.
Technical: C+
Fun: B-
Total: 66 + 74 / 2 = 70
cp_trotim:
pretty cool idea for mid, which I enjoyed playing actually, it could probably use some more height variation around there though - like how granary has the high route across the tops of the point for scouts/jumpingclasses, or badlands for the bridge underneith for spys - just variation of travel would have made it a more interesting area. Last capped pretty easily it seemed, and I made note of that in the feedback so you probably have seen that by now. the idea for the game being reset was pretty cool, and it should fix the gamemode, but in a subjective point of view I felt that when it happaned I almost sighed that we'd have to redo it all again. that we'd have to attempt our messy strategies and be bored some more. it would be cooler if you made 2nd more enclosed, pump up the stress, pump up the lighting cause it made me tired like when your history teacher shuts off the lights in class and you're already low on sleep and the AC is blowing air in your eyes so you cant keep them open cause they're drying out and you're like "fuck" as your eyes start to close and you're saying to yourself on the inside "at least just turn on the lights, man", but you cant cause that would be weird and you gotta keep your composure infront of all these people you dont like... Anyway. lights, stress, travel in mid, defending last, cool.
Technical: B
Fun: B-
Total: 75 + 73 / 2 = 74
koth_vacon:
its fun, nicely detailed too. the only issue I noticed was that no one really seemed to want to go down to the point, I'm not sure how you'd fix that since everything seemed to be in place. Perhaps make the side routes feel less attractive - cuase if I recall nearly everyone went into that full healthpack sideroute at the start of the game except for the people who forced themselves to do otherwise.
Technical: A
Fun: B+
Total: 88 + 78 / 2 = 83
pl_waffe:
Honestly, it's ridiculous. I had heard it was "impossible for blue to win" and "confusing" before I played the map, so going in I was interested, but warrentedly hessitant. It confused me at first why when blue (us) capped the first point that our spawn moved just behind it (a worse position to spawn than our original spawn) because it was faster and safer to just be where we were before. It was then mega-difficult to push out of that new-terrible-spawn and the game ended there. Switched teams, I didn't care for the map at this point cause it screwed me over and we pretty much let them roll, and then we realised that even if though they capture last, that doesn't mean anything because the map just gets reset instantly and another cart pops out at the start of the track. And that loops. And blue can't win afterall, it seems. So, overall, interesting idea, just executed in a way that made me hate the map and not want to play.
Technical: B-
Fun: D+
Total: 72 + 58 / 2 = 65
cp_xzzy:
the walls, as you know, have pretty meh clipping, points probably too close together, it looks good though for a 72 hour map. you need more routes between the points - there was only a single door (ignoring the unlcipped wall) to attack it - which made it very dangerous to attempt to go recap 2nd was you lost it, which usually meant it was a slow crawl to the end of the round whenever one team started attacking last. you should introduce more defending positions on last as well, since all of them were out in the open.
Technical: C+
Fun: B-
Total: 69 + 73 / 2 = 71
cp_yacan:
map feels too open, too hard for blue to cap 2nd cause their respawn time is 2x as long if not more than it needs to be. the whistle is a satisfying noise when first is capped so ther'es that. The areas felt alright but there was a lot of flat open ground which made heavies and scouts really not useful, especially in the last few rooms up until the final point. kinda dark in the left (from blue perspective) flank onto last. should decrease walking times from spawn -> spawn, was just that every time I respawned Id think "wow this is a far distance", back to the front lines.
Technical: B-
Fun: C+
Total: 73 + 69 / 2 = 71
pl_ym:
the map is very open, Ive read some people like that, but it does not serve gameplay too well cause we were getting demomen who would launch from their spawn to our spawn and kill us in 2 seconds from the start of the match, and snipers would could walk 5ft out of their spawn and camp last - which is kinda lame. it does mean maybe that I have to use that "I hope he misses" tactic more, which does come in handy, but it's kinda silly. although the areas were pretty vertically open which meant pretty awful gameplay, it was pretty sweet to look at to be honest. I liked exploring the red base, how some routes spiralled upwards into the cliffside and led me to the right positions, it was just cool to wander around. as Im sure youll hear in both these feedbacks and the ones through the site, the silent trains were ridiculous, and that the one train goes right infront of the blue forward spawn (spawn, hear no bells, walk out of door, get run over by 120mph train, :| ). also for red people, no one seemed to use the lower exit of spawn to defend the point, it was a pretty far walk away. also speaking again of pretty far, the last area is pretty silly-ly open, which meant really weird battles cause pyros were basically useless, minisentries were still as powerful as they were (less aoe damage cause no walls), and no one could defend beyond the balconies. So, it was cool looking, fun to just wander around in and explore, but it didnt serve up much enjoyable gameplay moments that made me laugh or gasp in awe, mostly just things like "man, these snipers." or "I didnt even see the guy who market gardened me".
Technical: A
Fun: B-
Total: 86 + 73 / 2 = 79.5
Notable mentions:
Aly
Vacon
Frozen
Karmapolice
Crash
Fish
My top picks:
Vacon, Crash, Aly
So, that was fun, more work than the last 72 I think, mostly cause we got so many entries. I think people appreciate getting honest feedback of their maps, but I think making everyone finalists also makes it weary on the testers of the maps. Like people leaving cause they didn't want to play specific maps based on how the rounds went previously. Or people leaving cause they had already played the nextmap, but maybe not some other. So Im not sure what a good fix for that is, or if we should just continue with it. We'll think of something no doubt.
cp_aly:
The map played well on just about every round that it saw, the first point goes down after half the time allotted and the second goes down only 2/3 of the time - which by definition of a/d makes the map seem very good. I just didn't enjoy it all that much. Defending first was pretty great honestly, attacking first seemed /okay/, defending second seemed kinda dull, and attacking second seemed okay. I felt like defending second was dull I guess because I couldn't really make pushes out into the controlled areas without getting shot in the back from the massive space near the first point. The only thing I could do defending second was clear the bottom room near the dropdown, but then no one went in there since I would kill them all the time
. Perhaps give a small buff to defenders on the side where the long low hall is on second, so that I can defend there in a safer position (perhaps not defend the hall, per se, but just stay over in that area for a longer period of time). Also perhaps make it easier to jump from the spawn area to the base up near the traintracks with all the windows that blue uses as a forward - I can clear it out occasionally but it never really feels that satisfying cause blue just runs down the lengthy bridges and then they're too far away for me to attack. So maybe that's an issue too: make it appear safer for blue to build up and stay in the area just before the bridge (from defender perspective) so I dont attack and then not feel satisfied doing so. So yeah, overall it was made very well, and fits the definition of a "good" a/d map, but I can't say I had many satisfying fights playing on the map.Technical: A
Fun: B
Total: 87 + 77 / 2 = 82
koth_alex76:
we mentioned in-game that the side routes could use improving and can be by directing them more towards the middle bits instead of just bypassing them. speaking of which, the middle area did feel like it was hard to take back because none of the entrances felt like a viable option to takedown people on those side ramps up near the crates.
Technical: B
Fun: B
Total: 75 + 75 / 2 = 75
arena_bakscratch:
The only game I played on this had six players total including me, which played alright. I felt the sightlines across mid were pretty scary (you see a sniper on the other side, you get away as fast as you can) and I felt the upstairs areas were pretty dominating. We voted to extend the time when we played so we played for a while, and the leading strategy was to go up from spawn, across the beams, and directly to the protected-height-with-healthpacks upstairs areas and just find and kill the people on the ground. It was a cool place to roam around but the sightlines were pretty killer, no pun intended, and the upper floor was pretty OP (I'd just re/move the healthpacks from up there - there was a lot of health). It was detailed pretty nicely but the observer cams were hard to tell apart since the bases looked basically the same from a high perspective (the roofs would then take up 60% of the scene).
Technical: A
Fun: B-
Total: 83 + 73 / 2 = 78
cp_bereth:
I wrote my opinion of the map in feedback a while ago but then you didn't change much of anything to combat that opinion, so mine is essentially the same as it was the first time I tested it: it's too open, it's too hard to attack last, the only reason last ever gets capped is cause red is disinterested in defending (they got bored), first is okay cause its different - we need different strategies to cap it.
Technical: C-
Fun: C
Total: 63 + 65 / 2 = 64
arena_berry:
it's a joke map and it's just like your last joke map! so I guess I feel obliged to give my opinion: it's boring, it doesn't really incorporate tf2 gameplay (its medieval mode?). you're missing textures, yadda yadda, its meh, I dont enjoy it.
Technical: C-
Fun: D-
Total: 61 + 52 / 2 = 56.5
cp_berry:
I suppose overall it was bad, but sorta okay. First was actually not that bad, I wasn't a big fan of the one-way door that had no visibilty from either side that led directly to the point. It meant that someone could shoot you in the back without you even knowing they were there, or that you could flank second in a hearbeat and not be stopped at all easily (otherwise, first was okay). Attacking second was pretty lame cause it was hard and throwing myself at the enemy sentries through the shitty opening you gave me out of the one-way door sucked, attacking the cliff side route sucked cause you're always at a disadvantage - you can even just as easily be knocked off the side by a pyro. Defending second I saw some scouts who took the lower route and managed to get a kill before they died, but then they kept just dying in the same spots anyway. The game never changed on second - it was always just blue smacking their faces into red and dying. I've read a bit about good games (and noticed the good maps) have a 'meta' where everyone playing notices the leading advantage, and then everyone attempts to do that, and then someone else sees this and trys a counter advantage and beats the original strategy. It would keep looping and the 'meta' would keep shifting - which creates a lot of discussion and a lot of fun things for the player to figure out. The first point on this map sorta has that - its pretty hard to exit first without an uber, perhaps make it easier to attack; but second on this map doesn't have that 'meta' of game changing rules seemingly at all (at least in the tests I played in) which made it just boring. I'd recommend trying to figure out a way to introduce new strategies for the attacking team. If this is a first stage of many for the map, then obviously scale it appropriately.
Technical: C
Fun: C
Total: 66 + 63 / 2 = 64.5
pl_crash:
Overall it played alright, the detail of first was really great for 72 hours, the ice looks awesome. I like the ideas that you used for the forward spawn as well. Last played the best out of the points, but contrariwise first got boring the fastest. I guess what I didn't like about it was that all the exits coming out of the spawn felt sorta lackluster. perhaps make the dock route end higher up (cause it starts higher up) so blue has some interesting ground to cover if they want. I could definitly see some cool-ass 3d skybox with fog and beacons and things making me feel like it was a hostile and far-away oasis out in the cold that blue wanted to bring down, so yeah, it has potential to be cooler.
Technical: A+
Fun: B-
Total: 92 + 74 / 2 = 83
cp_dark:
I left feedback notes on how I felt about a lot of it so I won't need to recap it here, but overall it felt too linear, like someone mentioned in-game that the only routes onto C were chokes! and also it was too difficult to push past the route under the glass windows (I think that was B?).
Technical: C+
Fun: C
Total: 68 + 65 / 2 = 66.5
cp_fish:
other people's opinions of this seemed to be that it was chokey, and it did resemble dustbowl a lot, but I enjoyed it enough. I'd say first stage was great other than the really easy way to red respawn from the right flank for blue on 1-2. 2-1 was pretty great honestly, it had the cool lower flank that gave positions to take out the sentries but funneled all the spam so it was risky to take, the high route was longer so took more time to traverse. 2-2 was pretty funky though, blue never really seemed to take it. I'd make the right flank for blue (the long hallway with the small medpack) more noticeble cause it wasn't at first - it didn't attract many people down that route. I'd also increase red respawntime on 2-2, cause it was an endless stream of red guys there. I liked the cool ideas you had, I liked how well it played, I didn't really like the huge doors that opened and closed rapidly and destroyed my rockets as I retreated after I shot, I didn't really like 2-2, otherwise it was good.
Technical: B+
Fun: B
Total: 79 + 76 / 2 = 77.5
cp_frozen:
2nd is too lengthy, and it stalemated since ownership of the points went back and forth about six times. Maybe Im crazy for liking those things (cause I seem to on other maps) but honestly I had a lot of fun playing it. Maybe someone should make a gamemode where you have to constantly retake points in a linear map, throw all the "reject" 5cap maps into that and then get a cool-ass server going. Back to the point though, yeah it was fun, I liked attacking last a lot, I liked that the high route that lead up to it only lead to the high area of the front room, which meant that you could get a hold of the base but if you wanted to push forwards more you'd need to decide if you wanted to go super low or through the front door, which took a lot of guessing and planning which was tons of fun. I'm not sure of the ways of the breaking of stalemates, but perhaps shortening 2nd, and slightly increasing spawn wave times of people on last (by a second or something) could crush the stalemates (Im sure there's a better way, but there's an idea. maybe talk to Phi about 5cap, he's good at that).
Technical: B+
Fun: A-
Total: 78 + 82 / 2 = 80
koth_fredrik:
there was a lack of focus in the map, the routes didnt flow to the point and there were lots of little sideways routes that seemed dangerous and silly. the geometry for buildings also could use some refinement; it was kinda clunky. it seemed that whoever capped mid was not able to secure it for very long unless they could push out and spawn camp the other team, which they managed to do fairly easily it seemed - without repercussion. that could have been the players during the tests though, so that might not be your fault.
Technical: B-
Fun: B-
Total: 73 + 73 / 2 = 73
koth_garuda:
Pretty cool map, but hard to stay alive in mid, or on the point. Im not sure anyone understood the door mechanic. Not many people seem go to the bridge (opposite of point) side of the map, I think its cause no one really notices it, they know it exists but their eye will catch a glimpse of the point-route and no alternatives. seems too easy for one team to just ruin the other's offensive, maybe they can get too good a hold on the enemy base. hard to make use of demoman weapons, there arent many places where im lower than my target, just the bridges which are sniper/spy territory which isnt that exciting for a demoman to take care of. make bridge area more action-y, clip things like the spawn door steps, organise flow better, make mechanic make sense or remove it.
Technical: B-
Fun: C+
Total: 72 + 69 / 2 = 70.5
koth_grizzly:
the middle area was too hard to retake it seemed, I was always on the team that controlled mid so I cant say that for certain but I heard it a few times from the opposing players so either Im 2good4them, they're 2bad4me, or the map is at fault. enough jokes, I liked the middle, but I thought the roof above the point was too overpowered, it could see the entire middle section and you were well out of view from most entrances into the middle room. I like the middle top, but maybe just make it more accessable somehow, not sure. or like granary and make it so you could get up to those high heights of the side areas faster and safer potentially.
Technical: B+
Fun: B-
Total: 78 + 72 / 2 = 75
cp_icecrystal:
its okay. defending last seems to suck cause it seems one of the doors doesnt work - the door that leads from spawn to the room holding the final capture point, not sure if that was intentional. Also I think the same spawnroom is broken earlier in the map, like you can enter into it as red but you cant leave until first is capped, something along those lines. The map plays alright overall, it lead us in the right directions, so it plays better than Steel in my opinion, but maybe that first capture point was a little bit too inspired by Steel cause it looks sorta just like it but ends up playing worse. I think I got bored at one point, which is usually a sign that the map lacks height, and stressfullness (things that interest me, as well as a few others) so keep those two things in mind (cp_blorav does those excellently imo).
Technical: C+
Fun: C+
Total: 68 + 68 / 2 = 68
cp_idolon:
I heard you want this taken seriously sorta, or at least you want some sorta-serious feedback on it, but nobody seemed to play it seriously. When I played it, we all instinctively went medieval mode and just had demoknight fights since the map was silly by definition. If you're looking for feedback on the gamemode, I'd say it's an interesting idea but makes most of the map irrelvant if the last point to capture is far to the left or right. It could have just been the small number of players at the time, but at the time it just felt like silly wasted space. I guess it was an okay idea, and I did laugh at the sillyness of the map, but that's about it really.
Technical: C
Fun: C
Total: 65 + 65 / 2 = 65
ctf_Kaptunkul:
upstairs was overpowered, but too dark and hard to find. cool idea, it worked out well once people knew what was going on, but then as we really started to get a hang of it, it became too hard for blue to win unless red was distracted by breaking the map boundaries along the fences outside.
Technical: B-
Fun: C+
Total: 72 + 68 / 2 = 70
ctf_karmapolice:
It's a bit cramped, and the huge change in colours of going from lower blue to lower red is horrendous on the eyes, but overall I enjoyed playing on the map. I liked that since it was tight indoors you compensated and gave us more healthpacks! I liked the map layout in general, and I liked that we had tons of options as we ran with the flag through hostile enemy territory, but those many routes also seemed to give the attacking team many places to hide and make it difficult for the defenders to even exit their base after the point was capped. I might even suggest making it so the defenders get a small amount of crits when the attackers plant the flag, just to help clear out the foes left in your base. It was fun, hectic, but maybe a bit too cramped in areas (the truck area outfront comes to mind). Also you probably could have detailed it slightly unless you were really short on time.
Technical: B
Fun: A
Total: 75 + 88 / 2 = 81.5
cp_leprecan:
The map had some weird linear gameplay going on, cause there were sniper sightlines that could see every entrance route going to last - which made it impossible for blue to push forward - which made red able to keep first even after they lost it - which made the map get boring pretty quickly. I liked first though, I liked the fast dangerous stairwell up high next to the point, it was tense holding that even as demoman (who is supposed to be good at that stuff) so you're doing somethign right with that. the ramps leading to the high areas of second were also kinda meh, it seemed almost innapropriate to give someone on blue such an easy route that completely overlooked last, so I'd say make that more difficult for blue to take - give red a way up - make it more of a power position for red to take. Overall it got boring cause second was kinda broken but first was neat so it wasn't bad.
Technical: C+
Fun: C+
Total: 68 + 68 / 2 = 68
cp_mlj:
cool geometry, but its too much ground to cover in general. the middle route was interesting that it doesn't fully open until the associated capture points are as well. it ends up being a cool forward base for blue, but red seemed to also be able to simply take it and just ruin blue's hope to take C. C also capped instantly, which Im sure you know by now.
Technical: B
Fun: C
Total: 75 + 65 / 2 = 70
pl_player:
The map was pretty dark everywhere, which was lame cause it made it really hard to see snipers and spys and hard to tell my team from the enemy team, but it also looked pretty dang cool. I wish you could have cool looks + doesnt ruin gameplay but apparently we can't. The geometry of the map was interesting, I liked the areas that we fought though. But as YM said in one of the playtests, the gameplay seemed to be a constant push to the end - which was okay, but it seemed red was never able to defend a point until last which would just fall slower than the others. Also your dang final point hole thing was uncovered and I think it killed like ten people every round who accidentally fell in, it was pretty annoying. :|
Technical: B-
Fun: B
Total: 72 + 78 / 2 = 75
koth_roflman:
actually a pretty neat idea for a koth map for 'prep up'. I feel like the second stage was a bit flat in the middle area around the point, like as a heavy you could drop down into that section but had no protection against snipers anywhere (except using your medic as a human shield). I liked the side route that went onto the roof building near the point - that was fun to jump up and over. I liked the idea that the first stage counted the clock down faster - you could make the first stage harder to cap (cause it was easily spammed) and then just pump up the timer it ticks down (like from 2 seconds to 4 seconds, or something like that).
Technical: B
Fun: C+
Total: 75 + 67 / 2 = 71
cp_squintik:
I found it kinda boring to be honest, you wait for the capture point to open and that's realy it for like 4 minutes? yeah, kinda boring, nothing really happens or even seems to really matter up until then since you can just make a solid push after sitting in spawn for four minutes, or make a solid push for four minutes and then just not do enough in that last moment where it counts. I guess if that's what you were going for - good job, but eh.
Technical: B
Fun: D+
Total: 76 + 58 / 2 = 67
plr_taka:
The opening of the map is a neat idea, I really like that everybody seems to immedietly recognize what's going on and and that stressful one minute of "lol, well, what do I do?" is pretty funny and fun. Beyond the first minute of setup time and the game plays out into an open flat plate of food you dont really like that much but eat anyway cause you dont want to make your host think his food is bad. the first area is really open, the last area is really open, the middle of the track area isnt that open but its still on the edge of the map and theres a ton of walkways above it no one seemed to use. the open areas in the setup area go unused completely after the start of the round, which is kinda silly. you should make the cart track loop back on itself like a u-turn and go right past the setup area again. also cut down on the length of the map - it was too big which made the map not feel focused. edit: I feel like this isn't enough information, I posted a lot of how I felt in your feedback thread though.
Technical: C+
Fun: B-
Total: 66 + 74 / 2 = 70
cp_trotim:
pretty cool idea for mid, which I enjoyed playing actually, it could probably use some more height variation around there though - like how granary has the high route across the tops of the point for scouts/jumpingclasses, or badlands for the bridge underneith for spys - just variation of travel would have made it a more interesting area. Last capped pretty easily it seemed, and I made note of that in the feedback so you probably have seen that by now. the idea for the game being reset was pretty cool, and it should fix the gamemode, but in a subjective point of view I felt that when it happaned I almost sighed that we'd have to redo it all again. that we'd have to attempt our messy strategies and be bored some more. it would be cooler if you made 2nd more enclosed, pump up the stress, pump up the lighting cause it made me tired like when your history teacher shuts off the lights in class and you're already low on sleep and the AC is blowing air in your eyes so you cant keep them open cause they're drying out and you're like "fuck" as your eyes start to close and you're saying to yourself on the inside "at least just turn on the lights, man", but you cant cause that would be weird and you gotta keep your composure infront of all these people you dont like... Anyway. lights, stress, travel in mid, defending last, cool.
Technical: B
Fun: B-
Total: 75 + 73 / 2 = 74
koth_vacon:
its fun, nicely detailed too. the only issue I noticed was that no one really seemed to want to go down to the point, I'm not sure how you'd fix that since everything seemed to be in place. Perhaps make the side routes feel less attractive - cuase if I recall nearly everyone went into that full healthpack sideroute at the start of the game except for the people who forced themselves to do otherwise.
Technical: A
Fun: B+
Total: 88 + 78 / 2 = 83
pl_waffe:
Honestly, it's ridiculous. I had heard it was "impossible for blue to win" and "confusing" before I played the map, so going in I was interested, but warrentedly hessitant. It confused me at first why when blue (us) capped the first point that our spawn moved just behind it (a worse position to spawn than our original spawn) because it was faster and safer to just be where we were before. It was then mega-difficult to push out of that new-terrible-spawn and the game ended there. Switched teams, I didn't care for the map at this point cause it screwed me over and we pretty much let them roll, and then we realised that even if though they capture last, that doesn't mean anything because the map just gets reset instantly and another cart pops out at the start of the track. And that loops. And blue can't win afterall, it seems. So, overall, interesting idea, just executed in a way that made me hate the map and not want to play.
Technical: B-
Fun: D+
Total: 72 + 58 / 2 = 65
cp_xzzy:
the walls, as you know, have pretty meh clipping, points probably too close together, it looks good though for a 72 hour map. you need more routes between the points - there was only a single door (ignoring the unlcipped wall) to attack it - which made it very dangerous to attempt to go recap 2nd was you lost it, which usually meant it was a slow crawl to the end of the round whenever one team started attacking last. you should introduce more defending positions on last as well, since all of them were out in the open.
Technical: C+
Fun: B-
Total: 69 + 73 / 2 = 71
cp_yacan:
map feels too open, too hard for blue to cap 2nd cause their respawn time is 2x as long if not more than it needs to be. the whistle is a satisfying noise when first is capped so ther'es that. The areas felt alright but there was a lot of flat open ground which made heavies and scouts really not useful, especially in the last few rooms up until the final point. kinda dark in the left (from blue perspective) flank onto last. should decrease walking times from spawn -> spawn, was just that every time I respawned Id think "wow this is a far distance", back to the front lines.
Technical: B-
Fun: C+
Total: 73 + 69 / 2 = 71
pl_ym:
the map is very open, Ive read some people like that, but it does not serve gameplay too well cause we were getting demomen who would launch from their spawn to our spawn and kill us in 2 seconds from the start of the match, and snipers would could walk 5ft out of their spawn and camp last - which is kinda lame. it does mean maybe that I have to use that "I hope he misses" tactic more, which does come in handy, but it's kinda silly. although the areas were pretty vertically open which meant pretty awful gameplay, it was pretty sweet to look at to be honest. I liked exploring the red base, how some routes spiralled upwards into the cliffside and led me to the right positions, it was just cool to wander around. as Im sure youll hear in both these feedbacks and the ones through the site, the silent trains were ridiculous, and that the one train goes right infront of the blue forward spawn (spawn, hear no bells, walk out of door, get run over by 120mph train, :| ). also for red people, no one seemed to use the lower exit of spawn to defend the point, it was a pretty far walk away. also speaking again of pretty far, the last area is pretty silly-ly open, which meant really weird battles cause pyros were basically useless, minisentries were still as powerful as they were (less aoe damage cause no walls), and no one could defend beyond the balconies. So, it was cool looking, fun to just wander around in and explore, but it didnt serve up much enjoyable gameplay moments that made me laugh or gasp in awe, mostly just things like "man, these snipers." or "I didnt even see the guy who market gardened me".
Technical: A
Fun: B-
Total: 86 + 73 / 2 = 79.5
Notable mentions:
Aly
Vacon
Frozen
Karmapolice
Crash
Fish
My top picks:
Vacon, Crash, Aly
So, that was fun, more work than the last 72 I think, mostly cause we got so many entries. I think people appreciate getting honest feedback of their maps, but I think making everyone finalists also makes it weary on the testers of the maps. Like people leaving cause they didn't want to play specific maps based on how the rounds went previously. Or people leaving cause they had already played the nextmap, but maybe not some other. So Im not sure what a good fix for that is, or if we should just continue with it. We'll think of something no doubt.
Last edited:
