Payload in MVM?

[The Pansmith™]

Wondering if it would be possible to have a payload cart in mann vs machine.

If so, please tell how you were able to do it.

 

[DrSquishy]

Have you tried copying over all the logic and entities for it and replacing what isn't needed with the MVM stuff? You might not get the hud though

 

[Nethy]

tldr -The answer is yes but its complicated c:

I think theoretically you can do this. However, there are multiples issues that you would need to address for you to actually achieve this.

1. The nature of MVM
   • First off, MvM is a player defense map in which players are red and bots are blu. While originally the Tf2 devs had the idea to mish mash red and blu against the robots, this has been long abandoned because the main issue was that this confused players. What I mean by this, is that the Tf2 devs had set it so that players are only red (defending) and robots are only blu (attacking). If the players are pushing the cart then it would be confusing in general to have the colors flipped.
   • Doing the opposite (Blu = robots & reds = players) would be no different than having a bomb expect that you funnel robots to a tiny cart which sounds like a bad concept trying to be original (imo).
   • Also, you might be able to switch the colors, no idea if there are red robot textures or if that would destroy the source engine/ need additional coding to do so.
2. You would need coding experience
   • While a stock MVM map has a coding template (i.e pre made bots & their functions). A payload map would require, i believe, an entire new code to run off. Payload is different from A/D which means having waves of bots deter you from pushing the cart needs different interaction than what current MVM bots are capable of.
     • I.e MvM bots are meant to attack not defend. So, if you try to have bots defend a certain area you would need to convert them all into the sniper's coding in which they have specified codes to prevent them from leaving an area until a certain requirement is filled.
   • What reactions would these robots exhibit? In standard MVM maps they act as Damage sponges, taking the hits while painstakingly inching the bomb to the objective. I'm not even sure if MVM bots can even dodge. Let alone have the though process to make interesting plays.
     • Even if you converted red bots (I.e Practice mode bots) they themselves suck with movement and within AI there are difficulty levels. So finding a balance in smart robots will be tough as they literally have aimbot.
3. The Nature of Gameplay
   • Both ways of implementing a MVM PL requires a team to standby a slow moving cart. This means several things:
     • 1. A team member has to restrict themselves to the cart. This is an issue in terms of fun. I.e is it really fun to camp on top of the PL stacked with additional perks and shoot mindlessly into waves of metallic AIs.
     • 2. PL restricts several classes in MVM, think about Engie, a mini is generally considered useless, as an attacking team can a Engie really adapt to the fluidity of the game? I.e move his sentry in constant danger/ constantingly catching up to the cart? Unlike PvP PL, I believe a MVM PL focuses onto the cart with little fear of being spawn camped or having robots actively trying to get behind the players.
       • Other examples would be Heavy, who have less mobility and become the defacto Tanky cart pusher or Heavies would be forced to pay for walk speed.
     • 3. Upgrades stations would need to be implemented which asks the question of how do waves work? Or will you just do a constant stream of robots? Spawn is long behind the Blu attacking team, so what now? Random forward bases?
       • I would probably do a PL map in sections (I.e a brief break such as PL_Invasions' gate opening or something similiar to OW (gasp) Eichenwalde which a nearby upgrade state, but it's still a concept to flesh out.
     • 4. How big of a map do you need?
       • A MVM mission generally lasts 45 - to well over an hour. how long would a PL MvM be? How long can you keep a PL map interesting before dragging a cart becomes dull. I personally suggest to check out Mangy's Frontier Essay to tackle those types of question. He also does an interesting concept for faster PL carts.

These would the general questions on the top of my head. Good luck with finding your answer.

 

[Fillmore]

It's been done already but I don't think it's worth doing as it doesn't add much to mvm

 

[henke37]

Mvm bots just use the normal bot code with a few tweaks. And the normal bot code knows how payload works. Or rather, it knows how control points work and the payload is just a hacked up control point. Might need some c++ level hacking to convince the bots to use their knowledge tho, mvm is special. As for the red robot textures, yup, they exist.

But all the other issues remain.

 

[anime scp-999]

the robots would be overpowered, because robots can just sit on the cart and they keep respawning in waves, witch means that there would be a giants at the cart and everyone would have to go pyro to blow them off the pl. and red has a whole thing where the cart can move back because in pl maps, when the pl is not pushed there is a 20 seconds before the cart moves backwards, witch means the reds can win easily, unless the 20 sec. pauses after the/a wave has been completed, witch would take a lot of coding. and if a moding group had this to work, then it wont be noticed until someone looks up this topic again. witch would probably be a year or 2 after it was accomplished. unless if valve did it, then it would be popular

edit: still, valve wont do it because they did say they were making enough money from cs:go,tf2,ect

edit 2: and i dont think someones gonna actually do this.i know a guy who was working on a event map for 4 years, so i think making a whole new gamemode would take 5-8 years to make something like this

edit 3: valve also had a new gamemode prepared and everything and they threw it away for a reason that i dont know

 

[Fillmore]

because robots can just sit on the cart and they keep respawning in waves

Even after you tried to explain this, I still have no idea what do you mean with this: Bots don't have a respawnwavetime on MvM and sitting on the cart is actually bad for the bots because it makes them a really easy target

The Payload would funnel them all into a really spammable lump (and with all the upgrades that MvM provides, this isn't very difficult) and the bot AI is really dumb so in some cases you can simply block the cart, crouch and the bots will never kill you unless you somehow happen to pop out enough for some of them to pay attention to you/spies/splash damage

I don't think that the Robots would be very OP on an idea like this but to the contrary, players would have a fairly easy time holding back the Payload (and like mentioned earlier, adding a cart to MvM doesn't really add anything new to it beyond switching the intel with a payload, and probably introduces way more problems than you'd want)

 

[anime scp-999]

the robots would have the cart covered, so the cart would move far in the beginning of the wave, and i forgot to mention the difficulty but im not because thats gonna take and hour to write down, anyway, there is a server kinda like what mvm+pl would be, "stop that tank!" is a server where you can play robots or human, also the robots have the voiclines nailed, and the ip is: 94.23.68.246:27055
but the pl is actually a tank that when destryed, you or a bot becomes a giant

 

[Yaki]

I wanted to revisit this concept in a map-building exercise, since I am pretty proficient in Hammer logic. I've made a new game mode for MvM (mvm_berserker, a "dungeon crawler" adventure-style map where players advance room to room to capture points and fight a boss that finishes the wave) and new buildings for Engineer in a Medieval MvM map (mvm_aeon). So this thing is my jam!

So, I think doing something like Payload + MvM is possible while talking about entity-logic. But is it recommended? Could it be fun? Here is my analysis.

( NOTE: This is for "Players pushing the cart while robots defend." It is NOT about "robots pushing the cart", like my friend has depicted above )

For now, here are the essentials (i.e. what players experience), without technical challenges (i.e. Hammer entity-logic stuff).

Winning and Losing: How to beat the wave, and how to lose it too

• Winning a game: Players push a cart from point A to point B -- This should be the objective.
  • To beat a wave, players would need to push the cart to a capture area like traditional Payload.
  • Technically, the map maker would need to create a robot that acts as a "flag" to tell the game the wave is still active; When this robot dies, the wave ends.

• Losing a game: This was tricky, but I think I found a solution.
  • The cart would have health, and robots would be attracted to and attack the cart to destroy it.
  • Destroying the cart would terminate the game and initiate the "game lose" sequence.
  • Players would ultimately have to baby-sit the cart; not sure if this is good or bad because that is the nature of how this mode would work.

I'm going to leave it here and ask for more suggestions. Please do not think of how to do the entity-logic because that is a different story. What matters is how the game treats the player and if this would be fun or not.