New blog post - You better hold on to your head, mate.

[Void]

The Sniper has been a tricky class to update. In particular, designing an alternative to the Sniper Rifle has been a challenge. To understand why, we need to go back, way back, into the mists of time, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and we started working on TF2. If it helps, you can listen to the Doctor Who Theme while you read.

In our multiplayer FPS games, players tend to die a lot. Death is one of the great feedback mechanisms we have in the game, helping you evaluate your own skill versus that of your opponents, and the viability of the tactics being employed by each of you. Being hopeless optimists, we'd like your deaths to be positive experiences. When we started working on TF2, 22 years ago, we decided to examine the things that affected how players felt about their deaths in TFC. Our starting theory was that, for death to be a positive experience, players had to feel like they could have avoided dying if they'd done something different. We found two factors that seemed to be important in light of that theory:

The first was whether or not you understand what killed you. If you don't know what killed you, that death is failing in providing you the feedback it's supposed to, and you won't be able to figure out what you could have done differently. Unsurprisingly, we saw that these deaths were highly aggravating to players, and in sufficient number caused new players to stop playing entirely. Trying to reduce the number of these deaths in TF2 was done through a variety of changes. It was one of the reasons why we chose to remove the hand-held grenades that each class had in TFC, which were one of the primary causes of these deaths. It was one of several goals that led to the creation of the freezecam.
The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn't have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you're very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive.
In particular, the second seemed to be the root cause of the hatred of Snipers. You're often killed by them while you're engaged with an enemy in the foreground, and most of the time the Sniper is so far away it feels like you couldn't have dealt with him even if you didn't have enemies nearby. In fact, the Sniper's goal is to create that relationship: he specifically wants to fight enemies outside their engagement range, because that's his primary advantage.

Which brings us back to the Sniper Rifle unlockable. In an effort to reduce some of the aggravation that other players feel towards the Sniper, we chose the goal of designing an unlockable that encouraged the Sniper to get a little closer to his target. We want him to give up some of his primary advantage in return for something else, so that enemies he kills feel like they were engaged with them, and feel like they could have survived if they'd just managed to fight a little better.

http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477

Doesn't necessarily mean a close range, small weapon... could perhaps be a Sniper that does more damage the closer you are, rather than the more precise you are. Making headshots less infuriating, and more time to spot your Australian fiend.

 

[drp]

this saddens me. as sniper being my main class, i can see me picking up scout or something

 

[A Boojum Snark]

On one hand, I am glad valve has finally stated the exact same thing I have always felt about "unavoidable deaths"...
on the other hand it also saddens me that they recognized this issue and yet left in headshotting snipers and backstabbing spies rather than completely reworking and/or removing the classes PLUS added criticals

That said, their joking about themselves and reading to the Doctor Who music was fun

 

[TheDarkerSideofYourShadow]

Hmmm, limited range weapon that slows people when hit with it? Maybe extremely slow rate of fire/small clip with long reload? Idk what this unlockable will be, but I'm at least interested in seeing how they'll attempt to pull this off.

 

[StoneFrog]

I had once proposed the unlockable for the Sniper Rifle to essentially be a rifle with faster charge and no crits. The blessing would be that you could shoot enemies in the leg and whatnot to cripple them and slow them down, the same way legshots would with Snipers in Team Fortress Classic.

Since the focus of Valve's unlockables seems to be encouraging different playstyles, it would allow less skilled Snipers to help the team. Rather than outright killing individual targets, they could help in making groups of oncoming foes more vulnerable for their teammates.

 

[Rasputin]

I know I do not enjoy being killed by snipers for the exact reasons they mentioned. The only problem is how good it feels when you do well with a sniper and find yourself enjoying it. It only makes me feel like a hypocrite.
As for the new sniper... I don't know, maybe a crossbow or something of the like where there might still be range involved, yet not the whole shooting from an entire football fields length thing.

 

[Mar]

They say

"The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn't have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you're very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive."

Yet they put in the stun.

They also say

"Our starting theory was that, for death to be a positive experience, players had to feel like they could have avoided dying if they'd done something different."

Then they add crits and random damage!

The #1 rule they broke about the 9-class system, they even said it themselves during the heavy update.

"Does it affect the main weaknesses of the class? What could opponents do against an entire team of this class armed with your idea? Class balance is more a function of the weaknesses of each class than their strengths. Weaknesses provide population control, where the value of a counter class rises as a class's population rises. i.e. Snipers become more valuable the more Heavies there are on the enemy team. As a result, we're very wary of reducing a class's weaknesses."

A class is defined by its weakness, not its strengths. By giving the sniper a viable up close option they are breaking this rule. Its not just a give and take with weapons... its such a simplistic way to look at everything and won't work in the long run. You actually have to think about a new and unique weapon that has the same weakness but a new strength, removing the long range strength for an up close option will... as Jefferson put it, deserve neither and lose both.

The saddest part... 22 years to figure out that people don't like dying... that people want to be killed base on skill and want a fighting chance... they've lost their way. At this point in time, i don't think they know what they're doing with this game.


PS. This was written my an acquaintance of mine, we both share the same opinion, but he said it much more eloquently then me.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

The saddest part... 22 years to figure out that people don't like dying...

22 years was a joke, TF came out in '96. The "dont like dying" thing isn't a new finding, they said it was "22" years ago.

 

[MrAlBobo]

PS. This was written my an acquaintance of mine, we both share the same opinion, but he said it much more eloquently then me.

lmao, while reading that i was think, damn, mar made an impressive arguement, then you end with the line saying it wasn't you...have to admit, it made me laugh

though i see what is being said, by making snipers be up close its changes the alignment of the game (so far anyways) by moving snipers closer to the action, spys will not be able to stop them as easily, though now there may be less need to stop them

basically any class that thrives on being away from the main action will have a bit less of a purpose

but meh, ill wait and see the results

 

[TheBladeRoden]

hmm, I'm predicting no scope, damage falloff, but faster firing rate,

or maybe a cutting laser. Where the challenge will be holding it on target for max damage,

 

[Mar]

My spin on it. Nice job f***ing up the basic 9 class system. Tons of games have done it before and they all pulled it off. You even pulled it off. Before any updates TF2 was the most balanced game out there (other then QWF). But then you made these stupid updates just to boost your sales that ruined the game. Medic and Pyro were good, but still need a little tweak, but the rest were a tragic failure.

Nice job screwing up the game that you had already made perfect.

 

[TMP]

My spin on it. Nice job f***ing up the basic 9 class system. Tons of games have done it before and they all pulled it off. You even pulled it off. Before any updates TF2 was the most balanced game out there (other then QWF). But then you made these stupid updates just to boost your sales that ruined the game. Medic and Pyro were good, but still need a little tweak, but the rest were a tragic failure.

Nice job screwing up the game that you had already made perfect.

If the game sucks and is fucked up by the developers, drop it.

That's the best thing you can do. If you don't like the way TF2 has become, you might as well get a mass movement to stop playing it.

 

[Ida]

My spin on it. Nice job f***ing up the basic 9 class system. Tons of games have done it before and they all pulled it off. You even pulled it off. Before any updates TF2 was the most balanced game out there (other then QWF). But then you made these stupid updates just to boost your sales that ruined the game. Medic and Pyro were good, but still need a little tweak, but the rest were a tragic failure.

Nice job screwing up the game that you had already made perfect.

I understand that you don't like these updates (although I can hardly gather a lot of sensible reasons as to why), but do people really have to complain about them in every single topic that's slightly relevant? The Steam Forums is a nice place for spreading Valve hate, if that's what you want.

It would be nice if we could discuss the Sniper update in particular, not turn this into another general update discussion. So to support that, here we go:

I've been thinking that making the Sniper a closer combat class is a good idea, so that he'll become more of a part of the team and more engaged in what's actually going on. I'm kind of split between thinking that a closer-range rifle is a good idea, and thinking that this completely ruins the Sniper's role. It's both at the same time, I guess. I'm excited about what Valve might do to get him closer to the action, but I can't really figure out what to think about this.

 

[Randdalf]

I'm fine with the updates, I just wish the Scout updates weren't so useless, and annoying. FAN and Sandman are big mistakes, and I hope they reimagine the Sandman in the Sniper update, it's just painful being BONK!ed and not being able to do anything whilst the entire enemy team rushes at you.

 

[Shmitz]

To me, long range isn't the defining aspect of the Sniper's play style, it's just a natural strategy that supports that play style. The important part is in dealing instant, massive damage to single targets using quick reflexes and great accuracy. If this can be retained at a shorter distance, I don't think the new weapon will sour that experience.

Granted, I rarely play sniper, so I may not actually know what I'm talking about here. Those are just my two cents. =P

 

[Ida]

To me, long range isn't the defining aspect of the Sniper's play style, it's just a natural strategy that supports that play style. The important part is in dealing instant, massive damage to single targets using quick reflexes and great accuracy. If this can be retained at a shorter distance, I don't think the new weapon will sour that experience.

Granted, I rarely play sniper, so I may not actually know what I'm talking about here. Those are just my two cents. =P

You're half right, I think. But remember that precision with the sniper rifle also depends on your distance - try zooming in on a someone ten feet from you, and you can't see shite (unless you're pro :O).

Maybe their new rifle will be easier to zoom at short range? More like iron sights in some games, I guess.

 

[YM]

I think mar has some serious issues with TF2, the game really hasn't changed all that much since initial release, sure there are some things that aren't so great but they're not really big things.
If the new stuff valve are adding irks you that much, just stop playing.

 

[Hawk]

I'm a little bit puzzled by the people who are not liking the sound of this, or are even considering not playing Sniper. The alternate weapons are still optional, after all. You can fall back to your old tactics.

If you're allowed to still use the original rifle, the trick is making the updated weapon desirable enough to risk standing closer to your targets. I'm getting the impression that the Sniper might get a rifle that remains zoomed-in after you fire shots, but only grants instant kills at close ranges. The dot in your sight could indicate whether or not a target is in range for a head shot. This would allow more rapid head shots, but bring the sniper in closer to make him more vulnerable.

 

[The Asylum]

I don't see what the worthwhile trade-off a player would get for using a closer-range sniper rifle would be. The whole Sniper game is long-distance combat, well out of the reach of overy other class except of course other snipers.

As far as the blog post goes, I honestly don't get why they feel every player has to have a chance to kill everyone near or far, behind or in front, or anywhere on the map. What makes Team Fortress Team Fortress is that you, as an individual, have strengths and weaknesses, and the rest of your team (hopefully) compensates you, and vice-versa. You know, that outlandish concept of "Teamwork" nonsense.

 

[Shmitz]

That's not the issue they're addressing. Specifically, they are trying to do something about the negative experience of dying without having had a chance to actually do anything about it.

On the other hand, my usual reaction when I get sniped repeatedly because the rest of my team isn't doing anything about it is to take a different route, or switch to spy or some other class that can kill the sniper.

Still, I'm all for encouraging snipers to get closer to the action, because that also gets them more involved with pushing map objectives, as opposed to just sitting back and killing for killing's sake.