PL Manngrove rc

R1ghteous

  1. R1ghteous

    R1ghteous L2: Junior Member

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    As of right now I am releasing publicly releasing RC5 of pl_manngrove. This is last iteration before final. You can download the file here from here:

    24/7 manngrove server - 216.52.148.23:27015
    -or-
    TF2 Maps]
    -or-
    Direct Link]

    The newest release features many graphical changes including:
    1. Adjusted lighting to help guide players towards objectives, along the fastest routes, and to add more depth/dimension.
    2. Adjusted detail in some areas to provide the player with a better experience.
    4. Added a new death pit at point D which is more fitting to the environment.
    3. Additional optimizing with hints/areaportals/draw distances to provide players with the highest fps possible while still maintaining as much visual depth and polish as possible.
    4. Created brushwork for the skybox so that red's skybox models would no longer clash with the color of the brick in the playable area.
    5. Corrected some Z-fighting and graphical errors.

    Gameplay changes include:
    1. Additional access to the battlements at point one to provide blu with a more immediate route. This change as shown to assist blu in pushing past the choke at the doorway that provided red with a slightly unbalanced choke in servers over 16 players. You can see the ramp/skill jump here:[​IMG]
    2. Added an additional hallway and elevated room for blu within the battlements. Testing with this change has shown to provide blu with an additional position to clear out slightly overpowered sentry spots, as well as, an elevated fighting position to clear the choke at the garage entrance on red side. You can see the changes here: [​IMG] and here: [​IMG]
    3. Re-added an alternate ending if red wins. The rocket at point D now takes off and players in the area are sucked into its blast. Cleaned up the logic for this as well.
    4. The setup time has changed from 90 to 80 seconds. The typical 70 seconds (rc3) was too short for red given the distance necessary to travel and setup sentrys/defense, however 90 seconds (rc4) proved to be frustrating for blu players. 80 seconds has shown to be a happy medium allowing red enough time to setup without frustrating blu players.
    5. Added/altered/lit various signage to help players find their way around the map easier on their initial run through.
    5. Added a func_door to help new players on the red team make the correct choice in direction to go out of spawn. Signage alone was not enough to ensure players make the correct choice in direcion. The new sign can be seen here: [​IMG]
    6. Added large amounts of player clipping to avoid getting caught on/bumping into objects. Additional player clipping has been added to provide a smoother walkway in some areas that were previously rough do to small changes in height on props/brushwork.
    7. In addition to this there were various other small changes that no one will notice but me.

    If you have any further feedback I am available at the.real.r1ghteous@gmail.com, you can add me on steam, or I will check back here regularly so feel free to post here as well.

    I would like to give a big warm thank you to everyone for your feedback and suggestions. I appreciate it more than you know. Also thank you to my testers who helped me with this latest iteration before its release. Finally, thank you all for your support.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
  2. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    [​IMG]

    This is way too many lights for one single room.
     
  3. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I am disappointed in the fact that your lighting doesn't look like it has changed at all.
     
  4. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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  5. R1ghteous

    R1ghteous L2: Junior Member

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    I actually made changes to nearly every light entity... its pretty noticeable if you take pictures of the same areas in rc4 and compare them to the same images in rc5.

    Personal preference. I like how it looks and I did tone down the lighting for rc5.
     
  6. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    is your direct download link supposed to point at manngrove.nav.bz2 ?
     
  7. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    Point Frozen was trying to make his big post about lighting is that you have too many lightsources for one room (And in general), detailing wise it looks ugly and lighting wise it makes it all look very boring even with slight changes.

    You need to get rid of some of lightsources instead just modifying the light they emit.

    EDIT:

    Quick example: (Probably terrible, but this is more or less just trying to point out what is so wrong with lighting.)

    [​IMG]
    Why is there floodlights? Why is there two? You could do fine with just those lightbulbs, all this overuse of lights mean the lighting levels stay same trough entire map, there is no shadows and everything is brightly lit, and to be honest, it looks bad.
    This map would look much better if you just got rid bunch of light sources and remove lights that light areas outside the playzone, you might say you can't get full picture from thread and all that, but listen to us, you have good map, some neat detailing ideas, make the lighting live up to rest of the map.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
  8. R1ghteous

    R1ghteous L2: Junior Member

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    I better fix that! Thanks.
     
  9. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    [​IMG]
    my framerate drops unacceptably low here - 37 when a non-laggy non-snow map never drops below 50 when spectating inside playable area

    [​IMG]
    clean up the console spam before going final

    [​IMG]
    slight fps drops in those locations

    [​IMG]
    rotate the junk so it doesnt look simply copypasted

    [​IMG]
    red light look a bit odd. i think they'd be better with a more gradual fade

    [​IMG]
    this hallway is boring as fuck, especially given the detail density in the rest of the map

    [​IMG]
    i have no problem with the amount of lights, however i dislike their randomness. lightbulbs, hanging lights, floodlights, w/e - looks a bit too random. apart from lightbulbs there is no structure to lighting.
     
  10. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Okay, here we go, a big feedbackdump.

    Firstly, i started this scan thinking "How bad can the light-spam be? I'll get off his back on that one." Yeah. That... didn't last long.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621065176?tab=public

    This rock is much more lighter due to fog than the trees behind it.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621063626?tab=public

    That didn't look great in barnblitz, and it doesn't look good here.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621066955?tab=public

    That barrel is embedded in the concrete

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621088698?tab=public

    I'm with frozen, this looks pretty dumb. Just swap it out for two angled large pipes is my advice.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621087082?tab=public

    Throughout the entire map there are these computer panels, with the massive chrome blocks either side of them. I dont like them much, and would advise removing some and replacing others with Data Link things like you see in gorge- mntion if you want an example.

    Also, here my "DO NOT mention Light Club" breaks down: you really don't need two lighting props there.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621119396?tab=public

    I appreciate it may not be easy to expand this gap here, but if you can, do, it looks real small.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621090064?tab=public

    Use a different metal texture around the edge of these vents, at the moment the corners look really odd. If you dont want to drastically change anything, select all four edges and scale them so one square covers all of it- you get four neat corners, an outer rim, and no wierd texture edges.

    I may have explained that poorly, so say if you want that clarified.

    EDIT: right, the rest of them.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621091081?tab=public

    I hope those lights are clipped carefully.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621074432?tab=public

    I would not want to have so many barrels hanging from a single wire...

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621075629?tab=public

    ...particularly one that, if you look, isn't actually attached to anything.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621128340?tab=public

    Move health and ammo packs nearer to the wall. While they're in the middle wof walkways, there's a much better chance of people accidentally picking them up wile walking past.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621132787?tab=public

    There seem to be a ton of pointless small props around this doorway- those yellow things, the lights. They'll just get in peoples way.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621129546?tab=public

    Cool idea... but did they put that sign on the wall, theon cover it with wood? Also, keep out of what, there isn't a way in there.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621122720?tab=public

    I don't think those lightbulbs work there. Not just the way there's so many, many lights around, but that i dislike those props because they're not really very industrial, but everyone uses them as industrial.

    Also those windows are on an interior wall.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621041457?tab=all

    Lots of lights. The spotlights make no sense here.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621071914?tab=all

    Why the sudden change of texture?

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621098115?tab=all

    This prop should really be avoided, since people see it and think "Ah. Well." Not like "Ah, well." like "Ah. I recognise that! that's cp_well/ctf_well.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621093264?tab=all

    Those are industrial steelwork buildings. Major heavy industry. Lots of it. What the christ are they doing with the corn?

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621092060?tab=all

    Remove two out of three of these lights. Seriously.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621118391?tab=all

    They are hanging a bomb on a wire that's just been slung over a hook?

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621048404?tab=all

    Red prop in Blu base.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621117164?tab=all

    Spytech and rough brick in the same room

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621115727?tab=all

    Remove the two lights in the upper area. Out-Of-Bounds areas should generally be dimly lit to avoid people trying to get into them.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621052081?tab=all

    Massively overscaled glass texture.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621080667?tab=all

    Where's any link to coal? Any coal at all.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621049858?tab=all

    What is this crane prop for? What does it lift, where does it lift it to?

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621056560?tab=all

    You do not need a light there.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621059558?tab=all

    Tree, Bush, growing out of solid rock.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621113203?tab=all

    Two trees growing out of what will by any rights be a tiny amount of dirt on a rock.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621110240?tab=all

    What on earth are you doing with that transformer prop? They don't go sideways.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621055070?tab=all

    Odd shadows on those two pipe props.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621109020?tab=all

    Rotate one of those pipes so they aren't at the same angle.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621107284?tab=all

    This room is almost exactly mirrored.

    http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198010698558/screenshot/595824610621101973?tab=all

    Personally, when it comes to skyboxes, i think less is more. I'd advocate losing some of the props in the 3d skybox.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
  11. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Looking at what some of the stuff Sergis/Sword posted, It looks like you barely took mine or others feedback...

    And I compared the lighting, its still too spammy and still needs more work.

    Again, very disappointed.
     
  12. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Edited my previous post, but i'll add further detail here.

    Firstly, i want to apologise for becoming rather fractious near the end of my last post. I've posted and commented on nearly a hundred screenshot in an afternoon, while nursing a headache. This doesn't mean my points can/should be dismissed, merely that you should excuse my tone.

    Some of the detail in the map is fantastic. Some little bits are brilliant. I can tell that you have an eye for detail. However, as many people have said, you've lavished the same detail on every area of the map, causing optimisation issues and issues with drawing the player eye away from the relevant areas.

    In addition to this, you're highly imaginative. Lots of the little areas of detail show great imagination, but this means that some areas have detail that is more imaginative than sensible.
     
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  13. R1ghteous

    R1ghteous L2: Junior Member

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    @sergis & leswordfish thanks guys. You pointed out some things that do need some attention before the map goes final. I appreciate it.

    @frozen There probably are some areas need to be looked again in regards to lighting before the map goes final, but I think its important to remember that the author has an opinion on their map as well. When it comes to certain things that are opinion based its not bad for one to take into account peoples ideas/suggestions but that alone doesn't mean that you have to change how something looks. There is no reason to be disappointed. I didn't ignore you I may just have a different opinion than you in regards to some details (like the pipes at point D for instance, I quite like them and lots of people have given positive feedback on how they look..
     
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  14. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    I do have to warn you. The author will always have a good scoop of positive creator bias. Kinda like how the lead developer of Modern Warfare Two's mother still loves him.
     
  15. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I understand and apologize if I sounded angry (I'll be honest, I was a little.)

    But author preference or not, there is a point at which things look good and make sense. For example the ramp. That doesn't makse sense with its current textures. If it was wood, that'd be better/fine, but at the moment it looks silly.

    Again, apologies if I came off REALLY angry, I was just expecting different.




    As a note, I still think the red side skybox looks crappy.
     
  16. R1ghteous

    R1ghteous L2: Junior Member

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    You're fine. Harsh criticism can still be good criticism. You raised good points. Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback.

    I your joke made me laugh in public... got weird looks. :) Thanks. I know that creator bias isn't uncommon at all. Im basing most of my aesthetic feedback on a mix of all feedback. The pipes seem to be a thing that people either like or don't. I like it.

    Its fine. Youre allowed to have emotions. Ill give it another run through. Decreasing the light sources and light props could prove to be a 2 fold bonus. Fewer poly's more depth in lighting. Your feedback isnt falling on deaf ears. The map is ~ 70% as bright as it was in rc4, but I'll take another look around given the feedback.
     
  17. R1ghteous

    R1ghteous L2: Junior Member

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    Just finished playing ~4 hours of Manngrove. The game play seems great. I am looking at increasing the fps in some areas (mainly the outside vista) and increasing the depth in lighting by decreasing the number of light sources. Would love to hear feedback from others playing rc5.
     
  18. RagnarHomsar

    RagnarHomsar L2: Junior Member

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    Reposting what I said over on Facepunch:

    I think the final point is in need of some revamping. It's pretty much exactly like Dustbowl's last point. On other public servers besides the one you test on, this might be a huge problem. My suggestion: revamp the current "what the fuck were the architects/engineers smoking" pipes so they reach down to the bridge or the area surrounding the point.
     
  19. R1ghteous

    R1ghteous L2: Junior Member

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    Show me in game what you have in mind please.
     
  20. R1ghteous

    R1ghteous L2: Junior Member

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    I got to see some really fantastic gameplay on Manngrove over the weekend. Would love to hear some more feedback on gameplay from anyone that I have not spoken with already.