Hoodoo - likes/dislikes

[Sgt Frag]

haven't played enough to make good gameplay comments.

But I belive in blu's first spawn room the time card slots are off the wall far enough to place stickies behind.

And a few bushes towards the last point of stage2 (?) are floating. You come through the wood building or cave (through gate). maybe that's stage 1.

 

[eerieone]

dito to everything about stage 2-2

my problem is, when the team manages to break 2-2, the 3rd stage comes a little short, it´s cramped and feels less versatile than the first two stages
i.e. there are too few ways to flank attack and alter the gameflow, it´s too linear
as spy, it´s nearly impossible to squeeze through the narrow corridors to get behind enemy lines

 

[HojoTheGreat]

Stage 1 I think is flawless, it has a great flow to it with plenty of alternate routes and no particularly upsetting areas.

As everyone else has mentioned, Stage 2 has it's problems. While I've always been a fan of the long passage after cap 1, the balcony is simply far too overpowered.

2 Engineers with the aid of a medic and a heavy can hold an entire team here, and while a skilled Demo with an Uber can clear it out, it takes far less time for the Engie crew to setup again than to build another Uber.

The mineshaft is a highly unused area that I think is in your best interest to consider as an additional alternate route.
*Apologies for the quick scribbles*

The addition of a path that connects to the mineshaft would give Blue a way of bypassing the balcony, without giving them too strong an advantage. The paths between the balcony and mineshaft are confined and easy for a heavier class to lock down, so you wouldn't be crippling Red. You'd also finally see some use out of that great mineshaft.

These are just simple sketches to illustrate the placement. You've got a lot of open space behind that mineshaft to work with, and the perfect distance for it to be a short walk.

The other area to consider was here, which would at least force Blue to cross Red's line of sight and risk getting sniped:

Although I quickly realized you have the side tunnel immediately behind the wall,

However you may feel it's worth reworking.

Stage 3 I feel is strong as well, although once Blue gets past cap 1 I feel Red's options are severely crippled, and in my experience they get rolled 80-90% of the time. Obviously you designed the final area to be open, similar to both of VALVe's final PL map areas, however Red is missing a few crucial Defensive positions for both sentries and other classes. Little nooks with a lot of wall so Demo's can't sticky Sentries on an angle, height advantages etc. Using the environment you've created, here's a rough idea that hopefully you find useful of how to rework the area:

A 2nd level to the right building, which quite frankly seems useless to me since it's windows are blocked off and the door and room is cramped. The upper level with the addition of a balcony and the catwalk to the left upper ledge gives Red defenders difficult targets and allows them to build a strong defense while supporting Sentries on the lower level.

If anything, open up that right building and give Engies a lot of breathing room.

Hopefully my scribbles give you some ideas on how to rework your map, which still remains my favorite custom map. Best of luck to you, I'm sure you'll come up with something great

 

[Altaco]

It hasn't been mentioned, but I still really don't like the last point in the map. Having the payload go into a little building full of sentries that can't be outranged I just think isn't a very good idea.

Also, stage 2 blu spawn, please, PLEASE add visualizers, everybody seems to agree on this point. You don't even have to make it nobuild necessarily, just make it so red can't get in.

 

[Shaar]

The main problem I see, is stage 2. I think it's too sniper friendly. there's the long open straights from blue spawn to 2-1, and then there's the long straight from 2-1 to the outdoors of 2-2.

I think perhaps convolute the track a bit more at one of those locations, and it'll be better. doing it at both I think will have too much of a negative effect on red team.

just my opinion though

 

[YM]

You're looking into the problem of the automatic cart, I presume?

Yeah I thought I'd fixed that...twice... I'll look into it again :glare:

*facepalms
Note to self, play tf2 more you obviously don't do it enough.

heh don't worry about it, I hardly ever play anymore.

Also, stage 2 blu spawn, please, PLEASE add visualizers, everybody seems to agree on this point. You don't even have to make it nobuild necessarily, just make it so red can't get in.

There is a problem with not making it nobuild. Its a little known fact (as far as I know) that since the spyper update spies can take enemy teleports.. meaning that they can get behind visualisers if an engie decides to grief..
but that does need griefers, and they're dicks anyhow so I dunno.. opinions?

 

[Zmathue]

There is a problem with not making it nobuild. Its a little known fact (as far as I know) that since the spyper update spies can take enemy teleports.. meaning that they can get behind visualisers if an engie decides to grief..
but that does need griefers, and they're dicks anyhow so I dunno.. opinions?

Gravel Pit has this problem but I don't thing valve would nobuild the blu base, see what valve is going to do to fix this problem, maybe a selective nobuild brush could be coded.

 

[Icarus]

It's fine that they can get in... just make it hard. Make it slope up to their spawn or something. Just don't Nobuild it... think of the engineers

 

[Memento Mori]

My suggestions - make the left hand upper tunnel (that is above the main payload route tunnel slightly wider and add an area (small house balcony thing) above the common sentry spot (raised area with the health and ammo pack). This should be large enough to house a forward engineers equipment and have some healthpack/ammo there, perhaps a one way gate and window).

Also add another way up to the upper tunnel, perhaps next to the health and ammo before the tunnels entrance with the ramp. I found sentries above the payload near the small window and upper tunnel entrance stop attackers completely without uber - I believe every sentry spot should be destroyable through alternate routes or simple weak spots but this particular spot doesn't seem to have it.

This would make this part of the map more attack friendly - on the many times I've played since the map went official I haven't ever got past the 2-2; although I have defended on 3 and lost the map.


We held the attackers up for a very long time on 3-1s spawn - particularly from the upper left (on defenders side) window which is inaccessable to the attackers unless they rocket jump (I believe there aren't any crates etc. to the window but I didn't see so I may be mistaken) so a flight of stairs and opening up that left area (add the stairs going up to the left with a new part cut out of the left wall brush and perhaps clip the whole brush further back) a bit more would firstly allow attackers the higher ground and make the whole area a bit less claustrophobic.

It's a nice map just like dustbowl or goldrush but unfortunately borrows a little too much of the chokepoint oriented gameplay from it - a few more routes to open it up would benefit it greatly. Despite its problems I have been having fun on it but on attack it is quite frustrating.


I'm going to MSPAINT some pics for you actually.

 

[Memento Mori]

Add a higher perch/plank of wood across the cliff - this will help attackers on this point, allowing them to spam downward onto enemy defenders and giving them high ground but still allowing retreat unlike the one way door at left side. I don't see the right hand entrance used much and this could increase its use. I don't think too much needs to be done to this point but this can still be a very large chokepoint due to lack of options.

This is where I believe some stairs could be beneficial - they would probably reach to halfway in the upper tunnel and shouldn't be too steep - if they were too steep I think it would be just another place defenders could spam from, whereas a more gentle slope means attackers have a better chance of spamming upward.

This is the tunnel - facing toward the defenders side. The stairway exit is just a guess. At the end there would be a doorway to the new area (amazing drawing coming). This whole tunnel should be wider.

This is the new area I envisioned. It could have a one way door as the exit - this prevents it slightly being somewhere new that defenders, especially sentries, could stop the payload from. It would allow a safer, further forward area for offensive engies, and medics building uber - think the dustbowl 1-2 tunnel. There could be health in there and ammo (mainly for engis). I also thought about a balcony above the rock and current sentry spot however that could be too defence friendly especially if an engi gets up there; any class could have a big advantage if there was a balcony.

Here's the 3-1 place I thought could be improved - the ramp at the back should be removed and put closer to the blu spawn. This makes it more attacker friendly. Then a displacement ramp should be put up to a newly lengthened window.

Here is the same place but from attackers view - its a bit of a dodgy drawing so I'll try to explain - the left wall should be brought back about the width of a player, then keep a bit of cover near the window (thats where on the drawing it sort of goes out in bad 3d).

 

[MrAlBobo]

ill use mementos pics as its a pic of the area I wanted to comment about

I do not want to see a ramp leading up to that window and turning that area into a main path, this area is far to cramped for it to be a viable main path, and it will be if there is an easy way up...

anyways...what I wanted to see actually was the bottom part of the window moved down 16 units or so, the reason? This seems to me to be the perfect location for a smart engie to drop a surprise teleporter, and when using that rock in front of it the engie can jump high enough to place it, but because that window sill is so high off the ground it can't be placed over it.

 

[Shadowfield]

Ok. So I have a suggestion that isn't related to specifically Hoodoo, but all payload maps in general. The first stage gets played 50% of the time, and you only ever see the final stage 10% of the time. Why not make a system similar to the plr model, where each team takes turns attacking and defending each stage, without needing to win to play on the next stage. Personally I think this would be more fun, and give the maps longer lifespans because the less played parts get more play time.

 

[Nineaxis]

My biggest problem with Hoodoo is Stage 3. Stage 1 is, well, pretty awesome but sometimes hard on RED, stage 2 is easy on RED (too much, as people point out), Stage 3... just doesn't feel right.

First, it is short. Tiny. Comparing it against Gold Rush Stage 3 makes me think "WTF Youme!". Beyond this (what I see as a bigger issue than length) is that it is cramped. Horribly. And to make it worse, it is confusing. Paths are opening and closing all over the place, there's a bajillion shortcuts (that may or may not be available), but it's still hard to get anywhere without having to fight someone. Up until the very end, RED seems too split up as everyone is going everywhere with no cohesive teamwork, just because there's that many paths going all over the place. BLU just follows the cart, which lets them push it all the way to the end.

The end is great, I love it. I don't love that usually when BLU gets there, there's two heavies, a medic, a pyro, and at least one soldier or demoman pushing the cart, because no one could get them off due to the lack of linearity or direction or proper chokepoints for defense. And with at least half of BLU sitting on the cart when it arrives, setting up a proper defense is difficult.

If there's anything I want to see you do, it is to rethink Stage 3. Keep the beginning (but make it slightly more roomy), keep the end, and think deeply about what is between them.

 

[Altaco]

Yeah I thought I'd fixed that...twice... I'll look into it again :glare:


heh don't worry about it, I hardly ever play anymore.


There is a problem with not making it nobuild. Its a little known fact (as far as I know) that since the spyper update spies can take enemy teleports.. meaning that they can get behind visualisers if an engie decides to grief..
but that does need griefers, and they're dicks anyhow so I dunno.. opinions?

I completely understand that problem, however, I've never actually seen it pulled off successfully. Either the teleporter entrance gets destroyed fast, the griefer gets kicked, or the spy gets owned before they can get any more than a kill or two.

I will forever smack people who shoot down ideas because they are griefable. That's what kicks and bans are for. The majority of people will play properly.

 

[Waif]

This is the new area I envisioned. It could have a one way door as the exit - this prevents it slightly being somewhere new that defenders, especially sentries, could stop the payload from. It would allow a safer, further forward area for offensive engies, and medics building uber - think the dustbowl 1-2 tunnel. There could be health in there and ammo (mainly for engis). I also thought about a balcony above the rock and current sentry spot however that could be too defence friendly especially if an engi gets up there; any class could have a big advantage if there was a balcony.

Yeah thats pretty much the same idea I had in mind

 

[Cameron:D]

2-1, that platform that above the cap that attracts engie spam, maybe make the window on the back wall a bit bigger to allow demos to drop stickies or nades through there a bit easier

 

[MangyCarface]

No more one way doors

 

[Cameron:D]

There is a problem with not making it nobuild. Its a little known fact (as far as I know) that since the spyper update spies can take enemy teleports.. meaning that they can get behind visualisers if an engie decides to grief..
but that does need griefers, and they're dicks anyhow so I dunno.. opinions?

Add another visualizer over the door to the actual spawn room, so if they manage to get into that little front area, at least they cant get into the actual spawn room

 

[HojoTheGreat]

There is no reason why Red shouldn't be able to get into Blue's base at the beginning of Stage 2. It never slows Blue down enough that it ruins the map, and quite frankly, it's tough love. Blue can't have a cakewalk all the time, and spawn camping is not an issue (quite frankly, spawn camping is a legit strategy in TF2).

Please do not add visualizers just because a few people are whining that they were pushing back by an Uber or got backstabbed because they didn't feel like entering the main arena.

 

[evanonline]

The second stage is the only stage I really have any serious gripes with, personally. The overhanging area over the first point is necessary to connect the back areas, but I've seen turtling happen up there all too often, and people don't seem to realize there's a flank they can use to get around the back for whatever reason.

I think if there was some sort of open back area the BLU team could use to easily get up to that overhanging area there would be less turtling up there. Other than that, I can't really think of anything much. There was some gripe I had with the very first stage but it's not something I can think of off the top of my head, so I'd say that's a good thing for you.

On an aesthetic note though I dislike how the cart just goes into the little shack and stops on stage 2. If it went down into the ground once it entered the shack it'd be fine. The explosion at the end, while very well done, seems a bit anti-climatic as well--if the explosion triggered the waste barrels in the area to explode simultaneously, I think it'd seem more interesting.

I really like Hoodoo and I'm glad you're taking the initiative to actually ask for opinions on it, because it's a good map and I want to see it played more often.