PLR Hierarch RC2b

Made by DrLambda

  1. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    Single Stage PLR map. Kinda heavily inspired by Hightower, hopefully lending itself to casual fragging while not being as impossible to cap as HIghtower is.

    Main focus point is the bridge in the mid where both teams start on opposing sides and try to get the cart over it. Still has quite a bit of "low-ground"-gameplay inside the buildings and before the capture zone.

    Hierarch has come a long way since A1. There are still some things left i want to do, but it is basically gameplay-complete.

    Happy fragging, see you in an imp soon.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2016
  2. Moonrat

    aa Moonrat The end of an era

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    I wish there was an overview screenshot to see what the hell is going on. Though I am interested in it....
     
  3. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    I agree with Moonrat about an overhead screenshot being helpful. I like the geometry you have going on though, especially the bridge over mid.
     
  4. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    I tried to create overviews, but because of some multi-level shenanigans and because i don't understand cl_leveloverview, it still is kinda hard to see what's going on.

    [​IMG]

    I painted some routes here to give an idea where you can go, although heigh differences are still hard to see obviously. Red and blue are cart routes, orange are rollouts and white are flanking options for nonmobile classes.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Berry

    aa Berry if you read this you're a nerd

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    I'm liking what I'm seeing so far, except for the fact that this slope here looks incredibly steep and boring:
    [​IMG]
    Also if that's the only route up, I can't imagine that being fun with a heavy or an engineer's sentry up on top of there.
     
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  6. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    My first idea would be to add another small roofed bridge from the battlements spawn exit to the center of the bridge, and add a small building/roof on top of the bridge for additional cover if that should prove to be necessary. Can't wait to find out in an imp.
     
  7. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    A2 released.

    The big change is the building on the bridge and the paths from the battlement onto the bridge. Those change the sightlines quite a lot. The sniper sightlines on the bridge/the slope became way shorter and less oppressive. Sniping onto the bridge became less useful, but also the battlements are less easy attackable now. Also, it adds some more high ground attack options (and explosive jump options into the windows, which i think is kinda cool.) It makes the bridge a bit less of a landmark on this map for now, but i think i can solve that once i get to detailing.

    I also decreased the steepness of the slope a bit (from 490 width/288 height to 580/288) which is enough to keep classes from doing "infinite jumps" to get up there faster and makes it look more realistic.

    Changelog
    • Added roof/small building over the mid of the bridge to decrease sightline
    • Added new path from battlements exit to top of the bridge
    • Decreased steepness of slope as far as possible without having to redo a big part of the map (was 490 width, 288 height, is now 570/288)
    • Made the auto-drive zone on the track crossovers a bit smaller
     
  8. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    Aaand A2A released.

    I screwed up.

    Changelog
    • Moved back a single wall by 32 units, making carts + cappers able to move along.
     
  9. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    A3 released

    I pretty much added early displacements and completed the tracks.
    The big change (as seen in the WIP thread) is that i took the bridge down 96 units and the mid level 48 units to make the high difference more realistic, adding additional gameplay (It's now very possible to jump up to the bridge with two WInger/Atomizer jumps per example) and making the ramps way less steep. I have to thank Berry again for all those helpful suggestions.

    Changelog
    • Early displacements
    • Took the bridge down 96 units
    • Took the mid level down 48 units
    • Redesigned the battlements - bridge path
    • Raised a few buildings to communicate better what is and what is not play area
    • Refined the path_tracks
    • Completed the tracks
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2015
  10. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    http://feedback.tf2maps.net/map/plr_hierarch_a3/

    We imped your map today, I thought it was fun! I played pyro though and had a pretty easy time. Other classes that did really well were demos and soldiers. That's because there was a lot of places to ambush people, either with height or tight areas.

    My suggestion would be to widen the middle area and remove a lot of the supports and things that are keeping everything so tight, especially along the cart paths. Also, maybe a rollback right before the cap point?

    I really like the verticality of the map, and I think it can work with its current extremes. One thing though is that the way spawns are set up makes them easy to camp. After the first round or so, players started rushing past mid to camp the enemy spawn since it was so easy and close. Take a look at Hightower for ways that this can be made more difficult.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  11. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    Thanks a lot, that feedback is very helpful. I actually want to put it into a lot of imps, but I'm on vacation right now, so being in chat is kinda hard. I really want to do a testdriven map this time.
     
  12. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    Okay, i've watched the demo now. I have to admit that i'll probably have to watch it one or two additional times because there is a lot going on. I actually want the gameplay to be a bit on the chaotic side, and quite a few of the impers seemed to enjoy it, so i'm happy that worked out. I kinda agree that the bridge is a bit small and a bit more room in the middle building would be helpful, but i'm a bit scared of the resulting sightlines if i open that building up more. I could maybe make a bit more room inside by making the building bigger than the bridge itself, but i really don't know a healthy way to open up the doors more than that.

    One more thought i had right now (actually i wrote the next few paragraphs before this one) would be to actually just widen the bridge and the low level (so, the grass.) That might work out as well, i have to think about it some more - That might even give me more room for the finale.

    I'll also probably add a small rollback before the cap, the current one is just a placeholder because right now i don't know how the finale will look at the end.

    I actually looked at hightower, mostly for distances, but also for gameplay areas, while trying to keep away from what it does wrong in my opinion. Per example the rolldown zone inside the buildings is a bit further away from spawn than in hightower because i don't want it to become a sentryfest (while still enabling Engis to build Sentries there, that's why there is more ammo there than in other parts of the map.)

    The bridge is the high ground, comparable to the upper level of the mid tower on high tower. You can spam down into spawn from there, but unlike hightower, you have a side exit that enables you to directly attack those on the bridge without being under fire the whole time (although the spawn campers can see you approaching.) Also, there is simply no ammo to be found on the upper level, so you don't have a lot of staying power if you're up there. I actually might change the health in the building on the bridge to ammo to absolutely enforce that - I'm only a bit scared of sentry nests up there, i'll wait for another test before doing something about that.

    *edit: Also, the 10 second setup is there because there is a setup in every plr map (I think it's 5-8 seconds in Hightower,) and there is a setup in the ABS library, so i thought it would be kinda important. You can only move after 4-5 seconds anyway, and i think you can't reach your cart before the countdown reaches two. I might shave a second or two off though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
  13. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    I created this professional-level drawing to explain why i don't want to open the doors of the building on top of the bridge much wider than they currently are.

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. MegapiemanPHD

    aa MegapiemanPHD Doctorate in Deliciousness

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    Fun map, bit cramped in places but overall fun to play. I like where your headed with it.
     
  15. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    After almost exactly a month of doing not a lot, A4 released.

    I widened the bridge by 128hu to make the whole experience on the bridge a bit less cluttered. That also means that the low ground on both sides gets a bit wider, also increasing gameplay space.
    I also changed the medium healthkit on the bridge to a small healthkit to reduce the power of camping there and added hazard stripes to show rollback and rollforward zones.
    Then, i fixed the sightlines of the sniper balcony so you can only see really far onto the other sniper balcony, but not on the two other spawn doors.
    Last but not least, i added a real (rough-sketch) finale with a small rollback zone and a huge, huge explosion.


    • Increased bridge width by 128hu.
    • Opened up the doors to bridge mid building by 64hu.
    • Increased size of many displacements to fit that new size.
    • Changed medium healthkit on bridge to small.
    • Moved small health on battlements around a bit
    • Added hazard stripes to rollback zones
    • Fixed sightline from sniper balcony
    • Added temporary overlay to tell that sniper balcony is sniper balcony
    • Added a basic finale for both sides
     
  16. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    So, i watched the demos and read all the feedback from imps and game day. The critism seems to boil down to these mayor points:

    1. Map is kinda like Hightower
    Yes, that's what i was going for - I wanted to create Hightower where doing the objective feels more satifying. I know that Hightower isn't universally loved, but it has more fans than your average map and i enjoy it quite a lot.
    2. Map divides players in a team between attackers and defenders
    That's a general problem with PLR maps and single-stage PLR in particular. This problem doesn't get solved a lot in official PLR maps, but if it is, it's usually by making very easy tracks that roll along next to each other. I didn't want to do that because that usually creates very plain gameplay. Instead i was trying to embrace it and use it as a feature - But i have to admit that i expected players to use some parts of the map differently from how they are really used right now. I especially thought that the interior area would be used for setting up sentry nests way more than it currently is.
    3. Last push isn't satisfying to defend and kinda hard to find
    The "kinda hard to find" point really is kinda weird to me, seeing how it is literally never more than 10 meters away from your spawn doors. I hope adding arrows and visual clues will help there. For those who tried to defend and didn't manage to do it, could you explain what you tried to do, how you failed and maybe even what would make the experience better for you? I really really don't want to make the last push as hard as Hightower.

    Another minor point i'd like to address:
    The track layout doesn't make much sense
    Yes. But it doesn't make much sense to lay down tracks to deliver a bomb in general - how did you manage to lay down the tracks right along your opponents spawn? I think this is a point where you have to embrace gameplay over realism.
    Also, on the gameday (not on the imps) there seems to have been the impression that you push your cart into your own spawn - You don't do that, those tracks are used by your opponents cart.

    I want to thank everyone for participating in the tests. You gave valuable feedback and i even saw a few "bugs" in the demo that i would have missed otherwise (you can still build on a few roofs per example.)
     
  17. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    Beta 1 released after half a year of doing nothing. I gave the map a basic artpass (okay, it's a bit more than basic in some spaces) and changed quite a few small things, but because the last update is from half a year ago, i really can't remember all the changes.

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
  18. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    heavy.jpg
    So yeah, after spending 3 nights on the artpass, i decided to throw out an early beta, hopefully getting it into a few more imps. I know many things still look kinda basic, but i hope to get some nice suggestions there.
     
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  19. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    B2a:
    Lots and lots (and lots) of clipping
    Added more lights under bridge for visibility
    Changed some lights in spawn
    Added patches under pickups
    Added a few more beams in outward buildings
    Changed glass texture on outward buildings to green for visibility
    Increased size of spawn door triggers by 48hu
    Removed a visible nodraw
    Added big signs on top of middle building to better show that you can't get over it (Model might change - BTW, i'm looking for someone to model those ^^)
    More spectator cams
    Detail work

    Mapname is B2a because we found a few small problems after the first imp, which i fixed now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
  20. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Interesting approach with the spawn buildings. I've never seen a map that matched up Spytech with non-Spytech before.