KotH Groundhog Day

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by Morgantao, Aug 17, 2011.

  1. Morgantao

    Morgantao L1: Registered

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    Hi all, My first TF2 map release.

    This is a VERY fast paced KOTH map, based in an underground bunker.
    Control point is in the middle of the bunker tunnel system, and it won't be easy getting there.
    This is my 1st TF2 map, so feedback is appreciated.

    Hope you're not claustrophobic, because this is gonna get crowded

    *NOTE: The map is playable, but not yet detailed. After multiplayer testing is done, I will add the cosmetic touches.
     
  2. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    Wait what... straight hallways from one end to the other? :/ I don't see anything happening besides sniper and soldier spam down those halls. Had you put some corners into the design, it may at least be a little less predictable.
     
  3. Tom Hoen

    Tom Hoen L6: Sharp Member

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    Is there a huge sighline from spawn to spawn on both sides of the map`?
     
  4. Morgantao

    Morgantao L1: Registered

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    Well, it's kinda hard to see in the screenshots, but all those black 'bumps' along the walls are big enough to hide behind. You can run from cover to cover.
    And I did say it was fast paced.
     
  5. Beetle

    Beetle L9: Fashionable Member

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    hall(s)ofdeath :)
     
  6. IcyEyes

    IcyEyes L2: Junior Member

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    "fast paced" is just another way of say it's a complete spamtastic clustercuss. :closedeyes:

    I'm sorry, but testing this with real people would be pointless when bots will do just fine. This is because it's simplicity makes for zero possible strategy what so ever. Just point and pull the trigger. Bots excel at this.

    To test with bots simply load your map in to the game and then bring up the console and type sv_cheats 1 (press enter), then nav_generate, (press enter again), then wait for the map to reload and type tf_bot_add 24 ( and press enter) or whatever number of bots you want. If you've actually setup everything in the map correctly the bots will proceed to blow the shit out of each other within seconds. Testing complete! :woot:
     
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  7. Morgantao

    Morgantao L1: Registered

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    While I can relate to some of what you are saying, I still think some people may find this an enjoyable map.
    It's true, most people out there do actually play like bots, there are those who do more than run and shoot. That's why bot testing will never be enough. Also, bots don't give you much feedback.... They don't even spy check ;-)

    This map is probably not gonna be in the top 10 list any time soon, but some people like this kind of map. Actually it's based on a very popular map I created almost a decade ago for another game (Delta Force). Back then it was a big hit. Then again, back then there were no sentry guns.

    Aside from that, I want people to test this map so I can get feedback that will help me make my next map better (Hopefuly much, MUCH better). Let's say that 10% of the players will troll me for the map, 10% will love it and 60% simply won't care, and won't leave feedback. Still leaves me with 20% chance of getting usefull feedback.
     
  8. IcyEyes

    IcyEyes L2: Junior Member

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    I can save you a ton of time and just tell you right now that it's way too simple to work for normal play. If you like that then good for you. Fast respawn, 100% crit, low grav, 24/7 orange servers might use it to screw around in for some time, but the kind of people that like these "fast paced" maps don't really care about giving feedback, and even if they do what could they possible say that would help you improve such a simple map short of redesigning the whole thing?

    Sure bots can't tell you how much they hate your map, but they're pretty darn good at koth and will let you understand the flow (or lack thereof) better. Like I said before there's no room for strategy, it's too simple a map. So bots will be more then enough. It's just going to be one big clustercuss. Go test it with bots and you'll see what I mean.

    Basing any map for one game on another is usually a very bad idea, specially when you consider the uniqueness of TF2. Most of the maps that Valve semi ported over from TFC to TF2 had to be almost completely redesigned in order to work within the game correctly. Best to just design for the game in mind.
     
  9. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    The point I was trying to make was that even something as simple as this would improve the map by an enormous amount. I can understand and respect the desire for a simple/small/fast/etc map, but there are some thins that just don't work well. Long narrow halls with no options being one of them.
     
  10. IcyEyes

    IcyEyes L2: Junior Member

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    I agree with Snark. Something like that would definitely help, but I really think you should go back to the drawing board. I'm not trying to discourage you here or anything. The first few maps anyone makes for any game are almost always bad. Even if you've done it before in another game.

    The point I've been trying to make is that while bots can never equal real people they can be useful in finding big problems in a map's early design stages. Map testing with real people should only be done to refine a layout, not to actually help build it.

    I went ahead and tried out your map and here's the problems I found:

    • You can see straight from one team's spawn door to the other. This mean snipers can camp at their door and headshot anyone coming out of the other. The fact that you have this long sightline makes even less since once you realize that there's a team filter blocking a third of the map from each team. So even though you can get headshot from the other side of the map you can't actually go all the way over there. This makes snipers even more powerful.
    • Additionally the team only zones are not visibly marked making it extremely hard to tell where they begin/end thous making it hard to know when you're in a semi-safe area. The easiest thing to do would probably be to just move the spawn doors up to where that zone ends. That's how normal maps do it.
    • The bumps along the walls actually make it worst because you now have a combination of too simple layout with too many sentry/ sticky trap placements.
    • Health/ammo packs seem to be randomly placed all over the place. None should be on the point. Only near it.
    • You're using Half-life 2 textures :confused:

    Fixing these problems will improve the map a little, but not enough to make it very playable as a normal map I think.

    Note: Best example of a simple map out there for tf2 is ctf_tubine
     
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    Last edited: Aug 17, 2011
  11. Morgantao

    Morgantao L1: Registered

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    See, that's what I call constructive feedback :rolleyes:

    I understand now what you mean that maps that work for one game, won't automatically work for another.

    I agree with snark's idea, and I was actually working on a 4 way mod of this map, where there are more hallways and more options to get to the CP. The only concern I have is that this design discriminates agains snipers...

    IceEyes, about your review:
    • I'll admit I'm a lousy sniper, but while testing with bots I could hardly actually see enemies coming out of their spawn... Most of the time the view was obstructed by smoke and explosions from the battle around the CP.
    • The no entry zones for teams are not clearly marked YET. As I mentioned, there are no decals or overlays yet.
    • Totaly agree, forgot about stickies.
    • Note to self: No ammo and health packs on CP ;).
    • I honestly tried to use only TF textures... Must have messed up :bored:

    I'm not sure I will actually try to fix the map, I will just take notes for how to improve my design for future maps. Maybe when I'm better at TF2 mapmaking I'll rebuild this map from scratch, to suit the game better.

    Again, any feedback is greatly appreciated. I take no offense in bad reviews, they will only make my next maps that much better :thumbup1:
     
  12. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    The thing is, you are bad sniper, this doesn't mean other snipers are too.
    You place Blob (or any decent enough sniper) there and enemy team is fucked.
     
  13. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Or a sentry. A wrangled mini-sentry can be up in ten seconds, and needn't worry about the smoke.
     
  14. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Any easily reached sight line to a spawn exit is never a good thing no matter which way you look at it. Even if it's mutually balanced vice versa; that's just even worse.
     
  15. IcyEyes

    IcyEyes L2: Junior Member

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    Glad to see you're open minded. :D

    You actually don't have to be a good sniper or anything to dominate on the map really. Spamming arrows with the huntsman, or rockets/stickies (basically anything) is extremely effective in itself. You don't actually have to see anything ether, just spam, spam, spam, and you're sure to hit something. That's the no strategy part I was talking about. Snipers just get the most advantage because they’re at the safest distance away.

    Sniper bots do work well at detecting bad sight lines. This is because they always go for the longest view distances they can find, but only if they actually leave the spawn room! :eek:hmy: There's a bug that sometimes makes them get stuck in the spawn and I think they were getting stuck in your map. One way to fix this is to mark sniper spots on the nav mesh, but that's a more advanced thing all together which you can read more about over here if you like.

    The texture problem is a common first mistake. Typing “tf” in the keywords box of the texture browser will filter out non tf2 related textures.

    Like snark said, I can understand the desire for a simple intense fun map, and It can be easily done in a game like Counter-Strike because every player shares the same abilities, but the problem with tf2 is that every class is very unique and different from each other and this makes it extremely hard to satisfy every play style within such a simple map so you usually end up alienating most players by favoring one class over all others. Now you're also not the first person to try this ether for TF2 and most have failed at it. ctf_turbine seems to be the only map that's ever really succeeded at it and probably by accident.

    In any case koth is probably the best game mode to start with in TF2 mapping because it's the easiest to balance, but still requires more work then most other games do to get right. All in all it's not the worst first try I've seen at a tf2 map. Heck, I've fooled around in the source SDK for years and have made my share of crappy maps. Just never released them. :p

    There's also a ton of helpful tutorials here on this site alone too that can help you improve your skills greatly so I would differently look around. Good luck with you future projects!
     
  16. Morgantao

    Morgantao L1: Registered

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    Yep, the sniper bots do like to stay in the spawn room, hide in a corner and do virtualy nothing...

    About the texture thing - will players without the SDK get bugs? If not, what's the problem?

    As I said before, I probably won't try to fix this map. If spawn to spawn sightline was the only problem it would be easy to fix, but the whole map is a big stickie bomb trap.
    The more I think about it, the more I realise that TF2 is not the right game for tunnel CQB maps. It's ok to have tunnels, but you can't base your entire map on them.

    I guess I'll keep reading the tuts here, and maybe download some maps to get some references.

    Thanks again for all the good advice!