CP Grack b13

[h3r1n6]

b9:
-quite some more geometry/detailing
-more optimizing (framerate wise, need to cut down on visleafs now), frames on the map should be a lot higher now
-added a simple 3d skybox
-added soundscapes and light fog

 

[h3r1n6]

b10:
-redesigned the rock walls on mid
-lowered platforms on mid
-made the small balcony on last useable
-reskinned last to make it more shiny and less gritty
-reskinned house in order to differentiate between red and blue side
-a couple of small adjustements that I am too lazy to list

 

[h3r1n6]

b11:
-changed cover on mid platforms
-moved resupply lockers in spawn forward
-added small ammo on the platforms on each side of mid
-detailing across the map


Regarding gameday submission:
The biggest flaws with this map right now are as I see it the indecisive theme and poor general appearance. Since I am an artisticly retarded person, that will take me some time to fix, if its even possible .

 

[waxpax]

We pugged your map again tonight. Some of the comments on it were:

too easy to back cap
last is crampt
last might need some ways to look out in to lobby, like blands

Here's the stv: http://www.mediafire.com/?6p5gpzawdpqwhmk

 

[Prestige]

i think i played this once in a gameday pub-style. probably my favorite mid in any 5cp map, really like it. it did feel a bit too easy to backcap, but it played better than most 5cp's in a pub which is something.

 

[h3r1n6]

i think i played this once in a gameday pub-style. probably my favorite mid in any 5cp map, really like it. it did feel a bit too easy to backcap, but it played better than most 5cp's in a pub which is something.

So if my map fails in competitive play I still made a nice pub map, and then I can pretend that was my intentiona all along

We pugged your map again tonight. Some of the comments on it were:

1 too easy to back cap
2 last is crampt
3 last might need some ways to look out in to lobby, like blands

Here's the stv: http://www.mediafire.com/?6p5gpzawdpqwhmk

1. I think that's more of an issue with unorganized pick up teams and people not knowing the map.

2. Could you elaborate on that?

3. I was thinking (or rather someone made the suggestion) of making that blocked off door on the balcony see through, if that would be what you are thinking about.

Also, I need better optimization, will work on that

 

[waxpax]

Yes, I would agree that a lot of backcaps in the pugs come simply from the fact that the teams are somewhat random and it's often the first time people have played the map; but, I think the person that said that was mainly speaking of the fact that the layout of the map seemed to support a lot of backcapping. There are a lot of areas you have to clear between points to make sure that you don't leave someone behind you, I think this is most obvious looking at the area between 2 and 3, there's essentially 3-5 paths to mid that you have to clear out if you want to take 3, a lot of those paths merge but that's a lot of space to clear while moving up, esp when you're trying to move quickly to fight the other team's spawn advantage.

Last just feels too small, feels kind of claustrophobic. I think Scorpio voiced that opinion and he made the point that, while blands is also very small, blands offers you a lot of vantage points to know where the push is coming from/where the other team is so you can push into them so that it gives an illusion of a larger point than it actually is. Or, at least that's what I think he was trying to say, anyway.

And, yes, making that wall see through is basically what I meant in the third point.

 

[grazr]

The lack of distinct colour coordination at mid and two symmetrical capture locations makes it easy to lose ones orientation when you get pushed off the point by aggressing players or end up chasing another player around it in circles. All the roofs are red metal and all walls are brown wood. Even in early beta players would charge their own base. Players who don't know a map tend to follow other players, assuming that they know where they are going, so just 1 lost player can lead to 3 or 4 more lost players. You need to make it more obvious which base is which.

Use more blue and white brick and concrete for BLU to reduce player confusion, there's plenty of options in the texture browser; and on a similar note, reduce that patchy green grass on the cliff face. It looks horrible and adds too much visual noise.

Last is easy to back cap because the routes are all seperated, as waxpax mentioned it's a chor to clear out all the paths of potentially hiding scouts just to move forwards when it's "your turn" to assault a CP. in blands all the routes converge in the lobby or are generally of the same area with high visibility of your flanks; your routes are all distinct corridors that converge directly on the point.

 

[ScorpioUprising]

Yes, I would agree that a lot of backcaps in the pugs come simply from the fact that the teams are somewhat random and it's often the first time people have played the map; but, I think the person that said that was mainly speaking of the fact that the layout of the map seemed to support a lot of backcapping. There are a lot of areas you have to clear between points to make sure that you don't leave someone behind you, I think this is most obvious looking at the area between 2 and 3, there's essentially 3-5 paths to mid that you have to clear out if you want to take 3, a lot of those paths merge but that's a lot of space to clear while moving up, esp when you're trying to move quickly to fight the other team's spawn advantage.

Last just feels too small, feels kind of claustrophobic. I think Scorpio voiced that opinion and he made the point that, while blands is also very small, blands offers you a lot of vantage points to know where the push is coming from/where the other team is so you can push into them so that it gives an illusion of a larger point than it actually is. Or, at least that's what I think he was trying to say, anyway.

And, yes, making that wall see through is basically what I meant in the third point.

I think the primary issue I had with last is that not only is it small, but its also pretty much impossible to spam into the small area before a full assault. For example, if you take badlands, the upper lobby area has a wide open door that you can peak into and out of without getting totally spammed. In your map, on the other hand, the only door that really fits that MO is the one on the far left (as attacker) and it has a wall directly behind it that you can get splashed onto. What this led to in my opinion is that you just sat there waiting for uber. Thats kinda how badlands plays out anyway, but badlands has the lower entrance with a really long sightline to at least give snipers or soldiers some play before the final push. I don't think any team would want to push in there without at least 3+ players dead on the opposing team or without an uber. Only my first time playing the map though, could have just been the teams.

 

[h3r1n6]

Im a bit drunk and answering this from a phone in a tent, so forgive me a bit fir this post

I am working onb making the red and blue side more distinct. I am limited a bit by forcinfg hte playablle areas to be exactly the same (comp map) but I'll see what i can do. Redoing those rockwalls on mid is the highest thing on my priority list anyway for the next version


As for backcaps, I still think that backcaps between mid and 2nd are not an issue, once you do it correctly, at least not more than on granlands. If this shows to be a problem after more testing, I will adress it. With badlands you need someone holding the resup, and the team pushing choke and house to prevent backcaps whenpushing to mid. Here you need someone holding house, and the team pushing the choke and the medium healthpack house, and you fully prevent backcap

as for last, you can poke a bit more on the bottom. Pushing out of badlands can be really hard to. I might have to revise the point and/or the lobbies though. It is the weakest of the 3 points.

 

[h3r1n6]

b12:
-increased size of last a bit to the left (defender pov)
-better optimizing (although a bit dirty)
-bullet clipped most of the stairs to prevent bad rocket splash
-reworked rock walls on mid
-more detailing and minor tweaks (why do I write that every changelog? )


I also added these patches for the medium healthkits and ammopacks:
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=13435&highlight=health

I might do the same for the small health/ammo.

 

[h3r1n6]

b13:
-added small stairway to the back right of last (defender pov)
-removed the roof of the launchpad on balcony
-changed roof of tower on middle
-added patches for small pickups as well
-optimization improved a lot, should be pretty much done
-more propspam, some retexturing/retouching displacements

 

[waxpax]

http://www.mediafire.com/?3hsbx31atxf9yb9

We pugged your map again tonight, that's the stv. I think Stalin is going to post the feedback we have you in a bit.

 

[gr8stalin]

Howdy.

We've actually played a lot of Grack variations in the past in the New Map Weekends pug group, and we played the most recent one today. Like Wax said, I do have some feedback I took from the players of the pug.

1. Soldiers aren't allowed to really do anything at range on mid. In order to do much of anything at mid, they're forced to jump up to the spire or jump around the two bends into the enemy. There's no real place for a soldier to hold and spam for a little bit.

2. For whichever team caps mid, it's a downhill battle to second point, with the attackers having the advantage almost the entire way to the spire. After a midfight where half or all the team is wiped out, there's no opportunity to hold at spire since the attackers have such a height advantage en route to the point. Of course a recently spawned combat class can stand on the spire and hopefully go for a cool airshot, but there's little chance of actually holding since the attackers will most likely have full overheal. The most you can really do is hide and jump out for a chance medic pick, which flows nicely into the next point.

3. There is no real "yard", per se. Going to mid forces you to choose one of three (or four) chokepoints to go through. It works both ways for the attackers and defenders: you spam down the narrow hill or through the house or in the stairway and either get a kill or force the opposition to back out of the way. This created pretty big stalemates in which each team got good picks to the point where it would be suicide for either team to make a move. One suggestion is to rethink the house and stairway, and try to widen the hill area so it's a more level slope into a flat yard.

4. Last, while undergoing numerous changes, is still suffering from the same problem. There are three routes into last point. Only one is truly viable, and that is the upper left door. This door, like many others on other maps, can be easily spammed and trapped and it's easy to tell that a push is coming from that door. However, this route's main strength lies in the fact that the attacking team has height advantage, and therefore can output superior damage not by skill but by sheer player placement. Lower left isn't a viable route since although it's also slightly elevated, the hallway is so cramped that the defending team can uber back into you and block the route entirely. Since they'll usually uber after you if you can't get a good pop, they'll have a strong chance of decimating your combo and whoever's with them to support their push. Lower right doesn't work because the defenders can see them coming and have a second or two to prepare as the attackers make their way around to the entrances on the left and right sides of the lower right entrance.

Everyone loves the spire on second and the mechanic of the two cap points for the point on mid, so we hope to play a new version of Grack soon enough!

(By the way, it's Greg)

 

[h3r1n6]

1. I kind of agree. Right now you can rocket jump on the rock on either side and control the space around you from there, so that is one option. But other than that bombing and jumping the tower are the only real options right now. As a solly for my team, I pretty much bomb every time I arrive at mid, so that never bothered me on the map. Dunno what to change though, without breaking something else in the midfight.

2. How is that different on any other map? If you have lost 3 players without killing anyone, you pretty much lost 2nd. If your team is wiped, without killing anyone, you lost the round, unless you can get some miracle defense or spy/sniper pick on the med.

3. Yeah, in recent versions I've become more afraid of mid/2nd creating a stalemate both ways. Mid should be pretty hard to push, I wanted the team that has mid to have an advantage when I made the map, now I don't know if that is even that good of an idea.

Widening the hill area is a good idea, will implement that.
I am also thinking about moving the entire mid area in relation to 2nd a bit down, making that hill a bit flatter. (like 64 units, maybe 128). At this stage this would be a rather tedious edit, but I think it should be good. That will also address 2nd, but for another reason .

For house I had one idea what I could do, but that doesn't help attacking mid, and I fear it creates too many routes around the map.

Mad mspaint skills!

Other than that, don't know yet.

4. Hmm, top right should be one of the main ways, but I want the bottom right route to be the other viable option. I could make that window one-way, if that's the main issue with that. Other than that, I am really not sure what to do.
I could make those bottom right entrances wider and easier to get through somehow.


I'll review the demo later, but for now:
1. Can't really address
2+3. Will address
4. Not sure