Goldrock Gulch

[heyyou]

I would really like to see this map cut in half and turned into a 3 or 4 cp A/D map.

I completely understand it's a remake of warpath and I'm all for that, however, considering it's size, and placement of the points, it seems like it could be easily converted into something very interesting that might work out better for the project. In fact, when I saw the screens months ago, I got kind of excited because I thought it was exactly what I explained.

However part of my feelings for might stem from the way I always feel a little bit cheated with 5cp maps/mirrored maps; make half of a map, copy, paste, rotate 180 degrees, done.

 

[Bermuda Cake]

However part of my feelings for might stem from the way I always feel a little bit cheated with 5cp maps/mirrored maps; make half of a map, copy, paste, rotate 180 degrees, done.

Not rotating a map would be hell to balance, and completely confusing for first time players...

It's not exactly lazy, anyway.

 

[heyyou]

Not rotating a map would be hell to balance, and completely confusing for first time players...

It's not exactly lazy, anyway.

Oh no, I've probably miss-communicated that. I guess i was trying to say that I enjoy A/D maps and appreciate them a little more than a 5cp map because it requires a little more effort to balance them.

We wouldn't make maps if we were lazy, we would just join servers and play them.

 

[lana]

Oh no, I've probably miss-communicated that. I guess i was trying to say that I enjoy A/D maps and appreciate them a little more than a 5cp map because it requires a little more effort to balance them.

We wouldn't make maps if we were lazy, we would just join servers and play them.

When you make a 5CP map it's more difficult. You have to balance it so it works going to and coming from the points. Just imagine an attack/defend map that has recoverable points and is also mirrored.

 

[Icarus]

Oh no, I've probably miss-communicated that. I guess i was trying to say that I enjoy A/D maps and appreciate them a little more than a 5cp map because it requires a little more effort to balance them.

We wouldn't make maps if we were lazy, we would just join servers and play them.

That's so wrong. It just shows how little you really understand.

Have you even tried making decent one?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just because both teams have an equal chance of winning doesnt mean that it is balanced.

 

[absurdistof]

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. I see what heyyou is saying, and I think he makes a good point, but I also think it's important to note that he's not saying making 5CP maps is easy, he's just saying A/d 3-4cp maps is harder to balance.

Side note: Grim, what? Confus. Isn't that the definition of balance, balance in terms of win probability?

 

[Nineaxis]

Balance in terms of win probability is an outdated and bad mode of thinking.

 

[Boylee]

Testing this tomorrow, will deliver demo afterwards.

See link for details:
http://playstuff.net/showthread.php/2575-Blueprint-006-This-Friday-on-the-maplab.-D

 

[VIVA LA NWO]

Hi, I've played this twice on 2f2f. The map isn't really all that fun to play.... Engineers are next to useless because point exchanges happen really quickly (usually because of the distance for the offensive team to go, as opposed to defensive), so by the time you get a teleporter up, your team will be spawning in a closer/farther away spawn.

7 points is a lot, even for 32 (surprisingly). The points are out of the way and (as was mentioned previously) hard to get to, having to around a huge path just to go back again was severely annoying..

 

[grazr]

Engineers are next to useless because point exchanges happen really quickly (usually because of the distance for the offensive team to go, as opposed to defensive), so by the time you get a teleporter up, your team will be spawning in a closer/farther away spawn.

This has always been a cp push maps Achilles heel. Whether it's 5 cp's or 7. Which is also why the mode hasn't sat well with the public player scene.

What puzzles me is that the winning team is supposed to get a spawn wave advantage, so 7 cp's seems to be an unnecassery feature, i can only imagine that Valve tested this mechanic and realised that decisive events need to occur at this stage in the game and form a conclusion to satisfy players. That's not to say someone shouldn't try a 7 cp map... it would certainly fill a niche. But how badly does that niche need to be filled?

Port's don't need to be so true to their predeccesors, especially when it affects gameplay negatively. The contrast between 2fort and badlands shows us that. Many people hate 2fort (the reasons it is popular is not for its (non)complimentary TF2 gameplay) and were it not for the fact badlands converted to 5cp (and thus rate lower with the public scene) i believe the significant changes to the maps appearence were necassery for TF2 mechanics. Fishbus should realise this.

 

[VIVA LA NWO]

This has always been a cp push maps Achilles heel. Whether it's 5 cp's or 7. Which is also why the mode hasn't sat well with the public player scene.

I knew this, but this map only made it worse with still very long distances to the point. I've managed to build teleporters on coldfront that have been used, whereas this map has point exchanges far too often.


AND THE TELEPORTERS WERE NOT THE EXPLOIT ONES FYI ICARUS OR SELENTIC.

 

[Boylee]

Demos are available if you want to grab them for fishbus, Icarus.

http://playstuff.net/blueprint/25.06.10/auto-20100625-2045-cp_goldrock_gulch_b2.dem
http://playstuff.net/blueprint/25.06.10/auto-20100625-2356-cp_goldrock_gulch_b2.dem

 

[honeymustard]

Hi, I've played this twice on 2f2f. The map isn't really all that fun to play.... Engineers are next to useless because point exchanges happen really quickly

Don't play engineer then?

 

[grazr]

Don't play engineer then?

That's besides the point. You can't just ignore a class because it's difficult to balance, even if it is easier to settle for when the class in question is UP as opposed to OP.

Balance classes or don't bother trying to make a proper map.

 

[honeymustard]

No, that's not right - engineer plays exactly the same on this map as it does on Granary, Badlands, Freight etc. Really fucking boringly. Because 5cp maps are designed for constant back and forth play, moving across the map. Engineer is designed for going afk while your sentry kills stuff.

Is Dustbowl a bad map because scouts are not viable?

 

[Tinker]

Yes. It is. Dustbowl is a badly designed map.

And I don't agree on your assessment. 5cp, especially the likes of Freight and Badlands, lends itself fantastically for offensive engineering and staying with your team, just like on Steel and Gravelpit and the likes. The fact that he can be used for easy turtling doesn't mean he HAS to or that maps should not also be balanced for the class.

 

[grazr]

Is Dustbowl a bad map because scouts are not viable?

Exactly.

Scouts are bad on dustbowl because dustbowl is a bad TFC port. Small narrow corridors make for easy spam kills on any class and tight arenas make sentry bulwarks inevitable.

Scouts are viable in A/D because of their speed, additional cap rate perk and high damage out put. Badwaterbasin, an original TF2 A/D map, proves how useful scouts can be in A/D modes. Especially when using items like bonk to serve as SG distractions.

Hopefully, to reduce the pain in the arse on our part (as map authors), we'll see the engineers meta game change with it's new unlocks, improving his versatility just like the Scout's did. But even without alt engineer items helping us balance his class, there's no need to be so dismissive, it doesn't help anyone.

 

[honeymustard]

Yes. It is. Dustbowl is a badly designed map.

And I don't agree on your assessment. 5cp, especially the likes of Freight and Badlands, lends itself fantastically for offensive engineering and staying with your team, just like on Steel and Gravelpit and the likes. The fact that he can be used for easy turtling doesn't mean he HAS to or that maps should not also be balanced for the class.

Did you read the guy's post?

"Engineers are next to useless because point exchanges happen really quickly"

He's obviously not playing engineer offensively. It's a problem with the game mode. Same for Dustbowl.

 

[VIVA LA NWO]

Did you read the guy's post?

"Engineers are next to useless because point exchanges happen really quickly"

He's obviously not playing engineer offensively. It's a problem with the game mode. Same for Dustbowl.

If you don't know the effect of an engineer in the game it's not really an invitation for you go and say "don't play that class". The engineer is meant to help push the offensive team to the front lines so that the point can be captured faster instead of defense capping the point and then your team arrives re-capping the point. This is where the issue lies - where one team is traversing a far distance and the other is capping, constantly exchanging the same points. This is purely because of a lack of engineers and teleports which would get the classes to the point faster.

Maps like granary and coldfront (etc.) don't have this feeling because it's not a 30 second walk to the point where a team can easily recap the point. There's chokepoints which allow an engineer to get a teleport up and for them to push through.

Maybe you shouldn't play the game if you don't see the obvious.