Farmstead

PL Farmstead rc4

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Wilson

Boomer by Sleep
aa
May 4, 2010
1,385
1,223
So i have played this quite a few times by now and i have to say i really enjoy the last two points and the areas around them, sadly a lot of times it feels like i never actually get to that part of the map because of many issues on the first two points of the map.

Big problem with both points are that they are very hard to cap (Second point more than first really) and once you have capped them, pushing onwards from the said area is also very hard.


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pl_inari_a60000.jpg

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(Last two images shamelessly stolen from Fr0Z3n and TeaTime)

While first point is not that hard to cap, pushing through it and playing offense on it is hell. First of all the whole area front of the blue spawn, is very flat. Sure there is some height difference, but it is mostly so small it doesn't even feel like it matters in the end. A lot of the times combat around this part of the map doesn't feel very exciting or interesting. In fact, most of the time first big clash occurs much further along, around the tall platform. Nobody seems to actually want to fight in there.

But there is a bigger issue with this point, which is pretty obvious from the screenshots above. Sightlines, absurd amount of long sightlines which defensive snipers can use very safely. I wouldn't usually mind long sightlines if there was way to avoid them, but every single route offense has to approach the first point is exposed to these sightlines.
Playing medic on this point is almost rage inducing as you are more likely to die to snipers than reach the point. All these sightlines also mean that there is no way defence won't know who is coming from where, just from the tall platform alone you can see all three ways to approach the point.

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Second point is where things get really unfun for offense and this point always feels like a brick wall.

Big issue with this point is, that there is not a single route to it that doesn't go through the room front of the first point. If red manages to get hold of the room, it is really tough to even get to the area where second point is. Things get worse if any engineers were smart and set up sentries on the windows overlooking the point.
Now if you managed to get hold of the big room, you still have all the routes to the second point well covered. Sure, it is not impossible to kill sentry spot but is another obstacle offense has to deal with to even get close to the second point.

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Now even if you manage to eventually cap the second point, if red has set up under the platform and has teleporters nearby, there is good chance offense doesn't even get the cart out of the area despite capping the point.

This is not that big of a deal though as it happens on rare occasions, but i felt like it is something you should still look into.
 

Freyja

aa
Jul 31, 2009
2,995
5,813
a8:

Removed rollback after point 1.
Re-arranged routes in room after point 1.
Altered buildings around blue spawn and point 1.
Removed lower spawn from final, replaced with a small health and med ammo.
Other minor changes.

~Download~
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
Pssssst if you can upload the map to the server yourself, you should, we just went and started a7 on an imp because a8 wasn't on the server! :p

EDIT: _a8 demo clicky
 
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Freyja

aa
Jul 31, 2009
2,995
5,813
a9!

a9:
Moved blue forward spawn, allowing blue to access high route easier.
Fixed red forward spawn trapping people (hopefully, seems to require multiple people to bug).
Made finale special maybe.
Reduced height of skybridge and second floor around final and third point.
Added ammo to third point room.
Heightened door that required a crouch.
Reworked flank route around second so that blue has a dropdown, preventing red from reflanking blue.
Moved resupply lockers in blue main spawn back from the doors a bit.
Fixed place you could get out of the map.

~Download~
 
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Freyja

aa
Jul 31, 2009
2,995
5,813
a11:
Fixed blue forward respawn room being missing
Improved finale to make it more epic like
Finale doors now destroy buildings upon activation
Added a door in a wall isntead of open wall near finale to block a sightline into red's spawn.
Moved red's forward spawn points back a bit to prevent spawning in door trigger.
Added second route out of the pit

~Download~
 

Freyja

aa
Jul 31, 2009
2,995
5,813
a12:

a12:
Modified blue spawn:
- moved door a bit to put exit more in the center of the exits
- added a wall to block spam from gate into spawn room

A point:
- Removed the route around the back of the building near a (the second half of the train route).
- Reduced health packs in building above A
- Reduced health pack size near the shipping containers

A-B transition:
- Remade A-B transition building to make it more interesting, more defendable
- Altered back route (the one that opens after A is capped) to overlook A-B room

B:
- altered defensable position to make it more obvious and favourable for red

B-C transition:
- Changed the windows in the skybridge to glass
- Altered the slide for blue forward spawn to allow classes to jump back up
- ALOT of other changes

C:
- Moved C point back to after the turn in the C building
- Added upper section to C building
- Staircase for blue/red to access upper of C building
- Removed the route from upper floor of C building into final area

~Download~
 

YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
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This door is a maaaasssive flank advantage for blu as soon as they cap A, if ignored by blu (unlikely) it's a massive flank advantage for red once blu start pushing beyond A
inari-5.JPG


Was the upper route here before? I can't remember if you've just closed off the below bit or moved it entirely upwards. I really miss the below bit.
inari-6.JPG


There's no reasonable way for red to get up to this balcony. If you add back the doorway to the right, it should be a red-only route, since before it was a good way for blu to bypass and flank, if you add it to the left it should probably be both ways.
inari-7.JPG

You also took the health away from this room when it needed more. Please add some back! :(
 

Freyja

aa
Jul 31, 2009
2,995
5,813
1. That's why it's a drop down for blue, red can't gain easy access to it. At lest, they shouldn't be able to.
2. No one ever used the lower area, or the upper area (the fact that you didn't even realise it was always there is proof). I'm hoping this will be more useful to red as defense.
3. I'm not really sure what's going on with this area either. The door before was way, way too strong for blue, and I don't think I can give red a way up there that will make any reasonable sense in the flow. I was hoping to give it some more interesting combat with the changes, but I'll have to see.

Whether or not these ideas are true remain to be seen from testing.

EDIT: misread what YM said originally
 
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YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,135
6,056
1) I missed that it was a blu dropdown, but they still have the option to continue on the side route and get to B. I guess I just feel like blu have the ability to get all the way from their spawn to C with only really seeing the tracks at their initial spawn. One thing Valve said about an early version of shortcut was that it was too easy for players to completely bypass all the relevant objectives with the side routes and that eith their maps they provide the flanks, but they end with each obvjective because the objective should be a choke. So if you're bypassing A to flank, the flank doesn't let you carry on going towards B without forcing you to go via A.

2) I saw sentries under there several times and would probably have used the spot myself if I ever played engie.

3) The area is definitely more interesting now, but hard for red to get up there when it probably shouldn't be.
 

Psy

The Imp Queen
aa
Apr 9, 2008
1,706
1,491
I've played this a few times now so I think I have a pretty good grasp of where things are going wrong.

Generally, with the exception of the first point, it is very difficult to defend on this map due to the myriad of options available for BLU. It just feels like there's too much going on and that the number of routes needs to be scaled back to give the defenders a chance to setup and put up a decent fight.

Overall, the map has a lot going for it and it just feels like there is no escalation in difficulty as the map progresses, as would expect in any other A/D map.

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I can shoot from here into spawn which is really bad / annoying and remiscent of the awfulness of Dustbowl S1's BLU spawn. Extend the spawn area out like I've done here so RED cannot fire straight into the spawn area.

002.jpg


These windows have always seemed a tad unfair to me. If the attackers get up here they have a height advantage on any defenders below. As a result, there is no reason to build any sentries here or to even hang around and defend. Personally, I would remove the window on the left and block the others with glass.

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I cannot defend this area. I walk in and am immediately at a disadvantage. The attackers have height over me, they have a direct sightline right into the area which makes even walking into the area hugely risky. Because of these reasons, I will never want to hang around here. If I'm an Engi there is not even a half-decent position that won't come under fire within a few seconds thanks to all the options available to attackers.

I would personally remove the pipe leading to the upper balcony. Only Soldiers and Demomen should be allowed to get up here, with the height advantage being gained at the expense of losing health. To support this, the healthpack should be removed. The lower left door in this image needs to be closed off. This will allow people to take refuge under the balcony and would also provide a nice spot for Engis to build.

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This sightline is really long and there is two of them; one for the lower floor and one of the upper floor. Move the door at the back to the right and bring the wall on the right further left to obscure it even more.

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This sightline is really long as well, plus it leads right into RED spawn! :(

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Again, there are too many options for BLU all offering a height advantage. If I am defending I'm going to be overwhelmed very easily. I have taken the liberty of hacking it to pieces in an attempt to help bring the number of options down to a more manageable level. I would even question whether the windows are completely necessary.
 
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Bakscratch

Finisher of Maps
aa
Oct 29, 2010
714
1,493
Ok a few point.
Screenshot%202014-09-15%2020.54.23.png

This route is really good for attacker, it basically lets them go pass all the combat and go into where you have the defense line in the building here
Screenshot%202014-09-15%2020.54.36.png

So when red do get a defense there, it is easily taken down as there a lot of angles.
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now you have blocked of the route there completely it has left a big dead space which almost is now ever used.
Screenshot%202014-09-15%2021.05.16.png

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I feel the building from a-b is somewhat point less for defenders as it is somewhat impossible for any defense to take place, but when it is the attackers take it down straight away.
Screenshot%202014-09-15%2021.05.42.png

I think the reason for it being easy to take is when the attackers cap A, they gain a advantage over the defenders for this spot.
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This route in whole give the attacks to much advantage, it seems a little too good. This gives you an idea of the huge advantage it give the attackers.
Screenshot%202014-09-15%2021.06.44.png

If the entire attacking team were to use the route they would basic switch places with the defenders and then have gain all the defenders position and take control before there is any set up.
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I know you probably know this but this door need to be more pronounced so people actually notice it.
Screenshot%202014-09-15%2021.26.45.png

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P.S. Sightline
Screenshot%202014-09-15%2021.25.38.png

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I feel the best parts of the map atm are c-d. a-b needs work, i feel the flanks are too strong for the attackers and there never seems to be much defense in a-b because of, I know everyone is saying this then you change it then they change it back, but I think if you keep it how it is now but reduce the "flanky-ness" will help.
 
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Bakscratch

Finisher of Maps
aa
Oct 29, 2010
714
1,493
A13 is so much better!
I only got to play last stage which I have some comments on.

I feel the only problem is how that all the attacker point are all in the same area, which makes pushing hard, as they are forced to go sorta from upward > down.
Screenshot%202014-09-18%2021.44.57.png


Looking at Badwater final, it has a few routes from different angles, and also different heights.
badwater_org3.jpg


Ill have to play it again to give more feedback on the rest of the map but from what I can see you have fixed a lot of them problems!

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Freyja

aa
Jul 31, 2009
2,995
5,813
Some fixes for the gameday
a13a:
Clipped area uner blue forward spawn
Clipped beams in places
Made rails outside blue spawn nonsolid
Fixed the broken one-way door
Added a wall above third
Added a window near first so blue can see defense
clipped some beams and boxes

~Download~