- Thread starter Ezekel
- Start date
- Dec 16, 2008
- 818
- 245
so i went to town with interior structural frames - lo and behold: too many t-juncs to compile.
turned most of the frames and beam structures into models, so problem's solved.
but it makes me wonder if other people get too many t-juncs when working on multistage maps or tc maps cropping up much, where you'll tend to have a higher amount of brushwork than on single stage maps or koth/arena maps.
turned most of the frames and beam structures into models, so problem's solved.
but it makes me wonder if other people get too many t-juncs when working on multistage maps or tc maps cropping up much, where you'll tend to have a higher amount of brushwork than on single stage maps or koth/arena maps.
Last edited:
yellow boxes (they look like lines here)
saw them every time i left blu spawn
Also my gripe with your map is basically the height differences, the random elevations, and the incredibly bizarre detailing. Well, bizarre may not be quite the right word, but it's close to what I mean.
Hold on, I'm going to make a huge post in a second. Or a few minutes. I just took 53 screenshots.
I'm not going to embed them because -- again -- there are 53. And this is just about detailing. This has nothing to do with the gameplay of the map, which I also see a ton of problems with, but I'm going to disregard that for the time being.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20000.jpg
In this shot you've got a poster breaking the 4th wall, or coming close. It's incongruous and I don't like it. The fence over the spawn is weird. Either think of a new spawn layout or just stick blockbullets up there. There's no reason for the fence to be there at all.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20001.jpg
This kind of fence (the mining reference one, to be specific) doesn't belong on wood. It goes in dirt. What goes in wood is railings or brush-based wood fences, but not this one. While we're looking at this, I want to say that you overuse the sniper fence from 2fort a lot. I see it everywhere and it drives me nuts. No one would arrange so many fences with the corrugated metal the same way like that. Cut down on them.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20002.jpg
It makes no sense for a support beam in this house to go through the door. If it's a detail beam and not a support beam, it needs to be higher or lower regardless, because you also wouldn't have a wood detail on a house be cut off by a door. Also, there's a brush clipping into the far left window.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20003.jpg
Buildings are not made of posts. You can't just make some posts, stick some wood in there, and add a roof. That's not how buildings in TF2 work. Also, there's no way that roof is supporting the upper house. I know we can't see the inside, but we can imagine the inside, and it's either empty under that house or there's a huge diagonal wall supporting the top house. This doesn't make very much sense. Truthfully I think about this house a lot. Every time I play the map. Bugs the shit out of me. Nothing about the geometry here makes sense.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20004.jpg
Put the tools/black texture over this wood where the conveyor belt enters. Also, why is there a window on what is ostensibly just a junction?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20005.jpg
Why would the corrugated sheet metals be used as cover here? Cover in TF2 is meant to be practical items set up for practical reasons, except in very few cases -- e.g., a certain team expects an attack and sets up a barrier. So you have to think of these sheets as practical, and not for cover. But what are they doing there? Why would you do that? The ramps are fine. It looks random and something done as needed, which is fine. The other ones aren't.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20006.jpg
Okay, a couple things. First all your staircases in stage 1 and most in stage 2 and 3 are too steep. It looks like you're doing a 1:1 angle. You want 2:3, or 1:1.5 at the least. 1:1 looks bad on anything other than 64 unit tall stairs. This applies to steps too, but I think you see that already. Second you do this all the time: pallets. You have pallets in places they don't make sense. There's no way to get up here besides stairs, but pallets are moved with big rolly things, called pallet jacks. As someone who works with pallets and pallet jacks, this drives me insane. And your light is off center. That combined with the monstrous height of the stairs makes the door look tiny.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20007.jpg
You don't stack pallets like this unless you like making more work for yourself. Also the dynamite boxes would be carried with a hand truck, not a pallet, because use of a pallet requires the load be worth a full pallet, or otherwise you're wasting time. This is actually one of the first places where I think you've over detailed. These props could be removed and no one would care at all.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20008.jpg
This deck is floating.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20009.jpg
This is not what the conduit model is for. It is not electrical wiring, it's a pipe full of wires. It shouldn't be going to one light. The idea with the conduit is that wires come out the top, snake through the ceiling, and then go in the lights. Just delete everything but the one with the switch.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20010.jpg
Why is this fence here? Return to my comments about cover as practical objects. And why is that fence over the track? Who would build that fence over the mine track instead of just recycling the track itself? Something about this area needs to change.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20011.jpg
What the fuck is this?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20012.jpg
This room is a huge spiral, which sucks. If there are enemies at the top, you can't get up, because they've got health ~192 units to the right, and you don't. The stairs are steep, again. I left a comment a long time ago, when you were in alpha (but still this detailed!) about how you should drop your entire first stage by 1/3 of its height. You should do this.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20013.jpg
More corrugated metal on a conveyor belt: why? Why would anyone do this? What purpose does it serve? Because it looks terrible and doesn't serve a purpose. No sightling is blocked like this, and if you're worried about spam, stick a blockbullets brush there instead, but I don't know why you would be. This is another instance of something being over detailed. Also, the mining rig on the building behind it is meant for skyboxes. It looks unrealistic this close.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20014.jpg
This junction box is too close to the door. On the top left you've got a building with the supports actually extending past it, which is wrong. Go look at Upward or Gold Rush and you'll see that the buildings actually need to go past the support or it doesn't look right. Also, why do half your low roofs have that little lip? More over detailing.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20015.jpg
Supports are too big for that terrace. Windows are spaced oddly. Roof is too thin.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20016.jpg
Why are there boards over that grate? Also, why is there a grate there? That's not strong enough to hold people, let alone a Heavy. Look at stage 2 of dustbowl for properly sealed vertical mine shafts. This just looks wrong.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20017.jpg
This is not how a mine tunnel would be sealed. And the prop has bad lighting. The texture above the tunnel is crooked, and the textures to the right clash.
(One thing I've noticed about Canyon Fodder is that you use a lot of textures. This probably ties into the fact that you over detail in a lot of spots; you're afraid of things looking samey or boring. Stop worrying, because right now it looks bad.)
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20019.jpg
More wrong ways to seal a mine tunnel. Also, who would build into the rock? You don't need all that brushwork.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20020.jpg
Unnecessary over detailing. Also it's symmetrical with the other door. Also... why build the beams but not something to go over it? This makes like zero sense. I'm not sure if some of the detail decisions you've made are because you think TF2 is kinda zany, so they'd do this, or if you just thought it looked good. It looks weird.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20021.jpg
On the left here we're in support beam Hell, where 3 support beams need to be arranged to hold one crossbeam. On the right, you've bizarrely placed a resupply on a raised platform for no reason I understand. Maybe there's a gameplay reason? You thought having to jump this would nerf some kind of insane blu push? I truthfully don't understand. Also the stairs are too steep.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20022.jpg
What is that thing? I guess a chute. More importantly, if you mentally follow the chute up, there shouldn't be room for anyone to look through a window at what the chute spits out. This entire screenshot is another case of over detailing.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20023.jpg
Why are these here? It's like confetti. Over detailed again.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20024.jpg
What is this stain from? Why is the dirt flush with the concrete? And also, you've actually missed a spot where texture differentiation would make sense: between those supports. Though I think those supports are a bit extreme for that doorway.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20025.jpg
What the fuck is up with these windows? And those roofs? And those pop-out windows? Just get rid of them, and simplify that center thing.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20026.jpg
Why are these sideways? Why are the window models in the pop-outs different? Why did RED build a blue tower between their stuff? Why is there a railing there?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20027.jpg
How do you get in here?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20028.jpg
Why is this recessed into the ground? This door looks big enough for a pallet jack or maybe a few hand trucks, but that step makes it worthless. This is another case of over detailing.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20029.jpg
Why is this here? Why not make it flat? Why is there a lip? Also, I count 3 wood textures in here. Take it to two: one for beams and one for the floor stuff. Make the beams dark, because it clashes like this.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20030.jpg
This pipe goes in wood, not concrete. And why would that arrow be on a door? You don't want to mislead the delivery people.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20031.jpg
Change all this white to brown. Also, why would RED build a blue building this close to their second point?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20032.jpg
No feasible way for a pallet to be up here.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20033.jpg
What is this metal stuff here for? It's over detailing again. Also your vents are symmetrical, and they'd look better if they were a bit different.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20034.jpg
This is a RED building, in the heart of RED's operations, but there's a BLU Industries sign on it? And... a blue shack? This makes no sense.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20035.jpg
Why is this fence here, why is this building blue. Again.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20036.jpg
Sniper perches suck, and I'll tell you why: they give cover to the only class that can one shot you across a lot of space. I'm not saying I dislike snipers or snipers suck, but consider the following: a sniper will always be wherever they are most annoying, because that's how they have fun. It doesn't matter whether you make a sniper hole for them or not, because they probably won't even use it, and will just abuse some random, ridiculous sightline in your map that no one ever noticed anyway. What I'm saying here is that catering to snipers with perches is a waste of time and effectively creates a dead space in your map where nobody really wants to go.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20037.jpg
Also it's so tiny and narrow that it's a death trap if anyone does get in there, and bad for spies that want to decloak. This shot also illustrates something you do a lot, which is adding a little foyer to a lot of areas. You don't need that introductory area after the first door support. Just open the area up. You could stand to do this in so many places, i.e., before 1-2 in the high flank for BLU.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20038.jpg
I don't understand what this area is meant for at all
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20039.jpg
These supports are too flimsy for this center building. The windows are random and suggest tiny immovable spaces inside the building itself.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20040.jpg
Window spam. I suggest turning this all into a single slanted roof.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20041.jpg
More conduit tomfoolery. This doesn't even make sense; obviously one of those lights is powered from inside the wall so why aren't the others?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20042.jpg
This feels like Gold Rush! And it's a bad sniper area.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20043.jpg
What is this and why is it here?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20044.jpg
This is clearly 1:1. It looks bad, sucks to traverse, and is high. Also the metal just... ends. Weird.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20045.jpg
Lonely light, and boring. This could use some supports as well, but not the flimsy kind. The real kind.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20046.jpg
Another building that is too thin and needs to go over the supports.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20047.jpg
This staircase not only looks silly, but is silly. I suggest rethinking the geometry and sticking it inside that little nook.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20048.jpg
Why is there dirt here? If they put concrete on the other sides of the dirt, where the ground is the same level, why not there? Or wood? Budget shortfalls?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20049.jpg
The pipe coming out of this tank is weird.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20050.jpg
Supports are too flimsy. As an aside, all these ibeam textures are ugly as hell. You're better off using wood for anything that isn't concrete.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20051.jpg
This building is gross, and it's quite obvious that the conveyor belts don't go into it.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20052.jpg
This is an indoor only vent.
I am not the only person that thinks these things, you know. You clearly know what you are doing in Hammer, but it feels as though your map lacks a cohesive thread, a central idea, a sticking point. I mean, it's obvious this is a mining facility, and it's clear you read the guidelines -- I can see that radio tower from every point on the map -- but when you get down to gameplay space and detailing and height, you flounder.
I'm not going to name people, but when chat saw my previous post several people quickly agreed with me that your map is bizarre, and that's before anyone talked about gameplay, which suffers probably more than the detail. They also all mentioned that any time you're given criticism you are quick to ignore it or just flat out get mad. And you've gotten mad at me before for saying things I've said here.
But the thing is that I hate to see someone who has great skill in Hammer not actually make something great, so I'm trying to help you. You clearly understand the tools, but you don't understand the process, or at least you don't understand how to interpret feedback in a valuable way.
Try taking a step back from your map and asking yourself if you've really created something that feels like TF2, or if you've created something that feels not like TF2. I can safely say that when I play your map, I don't feel like I am in the TF2 universe. There are loads of other custom maps that feel like TF2, but because of all these minor things the immersion is broken and your map feels off.
And, again, this is before gameplay comes into it. I can't say I appreciate the large swaths of No Man's Land, the height variances, the bizarre cap layout, the walk times that don't seem to correspond to anything, the snaking flanks that don't go where I expect, the pickup layout that makes little sense and seems random, etc.
I think if you want to make this work you've got a long way to go.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20000.jpg
In this shot you've got a poster breaking the 4th wall, or coming close. It's incongruous and I don't like it. The fence over the spawn is weird. Either think of a new spawn layout or just stick blockbullets up there. There's no reason for the fence to be there at all.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20001.jpg
This kind of fence (the mining reference one, to be specific) doesn't belong on wood. It goes in dirt. What goes in wood is railings or brush-based wood fences, but not this one. While we're looking at this, I want to say that you overuse the sniper fence from 2fort a lot. I see it everywhere and it drives me nuts. No one would arrange so many fences with the corrugated metal the same way like that. Cut down on them.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20002.jpg
It makes no sense for a support beam in this house to go through the door. If it's a detail beam and not a support beam, it needs to be higher or lower regardless, because you also wouldn't have a wood detail on a house be cut off by a door. Also, there's a brush clipping into the far left window.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20003.jpg
Buildings are not made of posts. You can't just make some posts, stick some wood in there, and add a roof. That's not how buildings in TF2 work. Also, there's no way that roof is supporting the upper house. I know we can't see the inside, but we can imagine the inside, and it's either empty under that house or there's a huge diagonal wall supporting the top house. This doesn't make very much sense. Truthfully I think about this house a lot. Every time I play the map. Bugs the shit out of me. Nothing about the geometry here makes sense.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20004.jpg
Put the tools/black texture over this wood where the conveyor belt enters. Also, why is there a window on what is ostensibly just a junction?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20005.jpg
Why would the corrugated sheet metals be used as cover here? Cover in TF2 is meant to be practical items set up for practical reasons, except in very few cases -- e.g., a certain team expects an attack and sets up a barrier. So you have to think of these sheets as practical, and not for cover. But what are they doing there? Why would you do that? The ramps are fine. It looks random and something done as needed, which is fine. The other ones aren't.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20006.jpg
Okay, a couple things. First all your staircases in stage 1 and most in stage 2 and 3 are too steep. It looks like you're doing a 1:1 angle. You want 2:3, or 1:1.5 at the least. 1:1 looks bad on anything other than 64 unit tall stairs. This applies to steps too, but I think you see that already. Second you do this all the time: pallets. You have pallets in places they don't make sense. There's no way to get up here besides stairs, but pallets are moved with big rolly things, called pallet jacks. As someone who works with pallets and pallet jacks, this drives me insane. And your light is off center. That combined with the monstrous height of the stairs makes the door look tiny.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20007.jpg
You don't stack pallets like this unless you like making more work for yourself. Also the dynamite boxes would be carried with a hand truck, not a pallet, because use of a pallet requires the load be worth a full pallet, or otherwise you're wasting time. This is actually one of the first places where I think you've over detailed. These props could be removed and no one would care at all.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20008.jpg
This deck is floating.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20009.jpg
This is not what the conduit model is for. It is not electrical wiring, it's a pipe full of wires. It shouldn't be going to one light. The idea with the conduit is that wires come out the top, snake through the ceiling, and then go in the lights. Just delete everything but the one with the switch.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20010.jpg
Why is this fence here? Return to my comments about cover as practical objects. And why is that fence over the track? Who would build that fence over the mine track instead of just recycling the track itself? Something about this area needs to change.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20011.jpg
What the fuck is this?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20012.jpg
This room is a huge spiral, which sucks. If there are enemies at the top, you can't get up, because they've got health ~192 units to the right, and you don't. The stairs are steep, again. I left a comment a long time ago, when you were in alpha (but still this detailed!) about how you should drop your entire first stage by 1/3 of its height. You should do this.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20013.jpg
More corrugated metal on a conveyor belt: why? Why would anyone do this? What purpose does it serve? Because it looks terrible and doesn't serve a purpose. No sightling is blocked like this, and if you're worried about spam, stick a blockbullets brush there instead, but I don't know why you would be. This is another instance of something being over detailed. Also, the mining rig on the building behind it is meant for skyboxes. It looks unrealistic this close.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20014.jpg
This junction box is too close to the door. On the top left you've got a building with the supports actually extending past it, which is wrong. Go look at Upward or Gold Rush and you'll see that the buildings actually need to go past the support or it doesn't look right. Also, why do half your low roofs have that little lip? More over detailing.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20015.jpg
Supports are too big for that terrace. Windows are spaced oddly. Roof is too thin.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20016.jpg
Why are there boards over that grate? Also, why is there a grate there? That's not strong enough to hold people, let alone a Heavy. Look at stage 2 of dustbowl for properly sealed vertical mine shafts. This just looks wrong.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20017.jpg
This is not how a mine tunnel would be sealed. And the prop has bad lighting. The texture above the tunnel is crooked, and the textures to the right clash.
(One thing I've noticed about Canyon Fodder is that you use a lot of textures. This probably ties into the fact that you over detail in a lot of spots; you're afraid of things looking samey or boring. Stop worrying, because right now it looks bad.)
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20019.jpg
More wrong ways to seal a mine tunnel. Also, who would build into the rock? You don't need all that brushwork.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20020.jpg
Unnecessary over detailing. Also it's symmetrical with the other door. Also... why build the beams but not something to go over it? This makes like zero sense. I'm not sure if some of the detail decisions you've made are because you think TF2 is kinda zany, so they'd do this, or if you just thought it looked good. It looks weird.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20021.jpg
On the left here we're in support beam Hell, where 3 support beams need to be arranged to hold one crossbeam. On the right, you've bizarrely placed a resupply on a raised platform for no reason I understand. Maybe there's a gameplay reason? You thought having to jump this would nerf some kind of insane blu push? I truthfully don't understand. Also the stairs are too steep.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20022.jpg
What is that thing? I guess a chute. More importantly, if you mentally follow the chute up, there shouldn't be room for anyone to look through a window at what the chute spits out. This entire screenshot is another case of over detailing.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20023.jpg
Why are these here? It's like confetti. Over detailed again.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20024.jpg
What is this stain from? Why is the dirt flush with the concrete? And also, you've actually missed a spot where texture differentiation would make sense: between those supports. Though I think those supports are a bit extreme for that doorway.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20025.jpg
What the fuck is up with these windows? And those roofs? And those pop-out windows? Just get rid of them, and simplify that center thing.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20026.jpg
Why are these sideways? Why are the window models in the pop-outs different? Why did RED build a blue tower between their stuff? Why is there a railing there?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20027.jpg
How do you get in here?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20028.jpg
Why is this recessed into the ground? This door looks big enough for a pallet jack or maybe a few hand trucks, but that step makes it worthless. This is another case of over detailing.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20029.jpg
Why is this here? Why not make it flat? Why is there a lip? Also, I count 3 wood textures in here. Take it to two: one for beams and one for the floor stuff. Make the beams dark, because it clashes like this.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20030.jpg
This pipe goes in wood, not concrete. And why would that arrow be on a door? You don't want to mislead the delivery people.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20031.jpg
Change all this white to brown. Also, why would RED build a blue building this close to their second point?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20032.jpg
No feasible way for a pallet to be up here.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20033.jpg
What is this metal stuff here for? It's over detailing again. Also your vents are symmetrical, and they'd look better if they were a bit different.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20034.jpg
This is a RED building, in the heart of RED's operations, but there's a BLU Industries sign on it? And... a blue shack? This makes no sense.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20035.jpg
Why is this fence here, why is this building blue. Again.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20036.jpg
Sniper perches suck, and I'll tell you why: they give cover to the only class that can one shot you across a lot of space. I'm not saying I dislike snipers or snipers suck, but consider the following: a sniper will always be wherever they are most annoying, because that's how they have fun. It doesn't matter whether you make a sniper hole for them or not, because they probably won't even use it, and will just abuse some random, ridiculous sightline in your map that no one ever noticed anyway. What I'm saying here is that catering to snipers with perches is a waste of time and effectively creates a dead space in your map where nobody really wants to go.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20037.jpg
Also it's so tiny and narrow that it's a death trap if anyone does get in there, and bad for spies that want to decloak. This shot also illustrates something you do a lot, which is adding a little foyer to a lot of areas. You don't need that introductory area after the first door support. Just open the area up. You could stand to do this in so many places, i.e., before 1-2 in the high flank for BLU.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20038.jpg
I don't understand what this area is meant for at all
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20039.jpg
These supports are too flimsy for this center building. The windows are random and suggest tiny immovable spaces inside the building itself.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20040.jpg
Window spam. I suggest turning this all into a single slanted roof.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20041.jpg
More conduit tomfoolery. This doesn't even make sense; obviously one of those lights is powered from inside the wall so why aren't the others?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20042.jpg
This feels like Gold Rush! And it's a bad sniper area.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20043.jpg
What is this and why is it here?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20044.jpg
This is clearly 1:1. It looks bad, sucks to traverse, and is high. Also the metal just... ends. Weird.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20045.jpg
Lonely light, and boring. This could use some supports as well, but not the flimsy kind. The real kind.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20046.jpg
Another building that is too thin and needs to go over the supports.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20047.jpg
This staircase not only looks silly, but is silly. I suggest rethinking the geometry and sticking it inside that little nook.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20048.jpg
Why is there dirt here? If they put concrete on the other sides of the dirt, where the ground is the same level, why not there? Or wood? Budget shortfalls?
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20049.jpg
The pipe coming out of this tank is weird.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20050.jpg
Supports are too flimsy. As an aside, all these ibeam textures are ugly as hell. You're better off using wood for anything that isn't concrete.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20051.jpg
This building is gross, and it's quite obvious that the conveyor belts don't go into it.
http://calcified.net/maps/cp_canyonfodder/b2/cp_canyonfodder_b20052.jpg
This is an indoor only vent.
I am not the only person that thinks these things, you know. You clearly know what you are doing in Hammer, but it feels as though your map lacks a cohesive thread, a central idea, a sticking point. I mean, it's obvious this is a mining facility, and it's clear you read the guidelines -- I can see that radio tower from every point on the map -- but when you get down to gameplay space and detailing and height, you flounder.
I'm not going to name people, but when chat saw my previous post several people quickly agreed with me that your map is bizarre, and that's before anyone talked about gameplay, which suffers probably more than the detail. They also all mentioned that any time you're given criticism you are quick to ignore it or just flat out get mad. And you've gotten mad at me before for saying things I've said here.
But the thing is that I hate to see someone who has great skill in Hammer not actually make something great, so I'm trying to help you. You clearly understand the tools, but you don't understand the process, or at least you don't understand how to interpret feedback in a valuable way.
Try taking a step back from your map and asking yourself if you've really created something that feels like TF2, or if you've created something that feels not like TF2. I can safely say that when I play your map, I don't feel like I am in the TF2 universe. There are loads of other custom maps that feel like TF2, but because of all these minor things the immersion is broken and your map feels off.
And, again, this is before gameplay comes into it. I can't say I appreciate the large swaths of No Man's Land, the height variances, the bizarre cap layout, the walk times that don't seem to correspond to anything, the snaking flanks that don't go where I expect, the pickup layout that makes little sense and seems random, etc.
I think if you want to make this work you've got a long way to go.
Jesus shit yyler make everyone else ever look bad why dont you?
I'll throw in my own opinions in considerably less time: you dont think enough about the why of detailing; have you read Grazr's excellent article on immersion? The detailing density is also a bit bipolar: some areas have detail up the wazoo, while others are just masses and masses of bare walls.
Blu's first spawn is such an unimpressive building. Why not make it two or more storeys? I think Blu's spawn has to look a little more imposing (though i am aware that its a stolen red building, yes). It looks like something you could rocket-jump over.
Gameplay: Walk times are generally way too big. Stage two particularly has: A large open space, a tight, painful corridor area, another large open space, and then a point hidden around a corner. No wonder its so easy to defend: its freaking miles!
There seems to be little medium space- it seems to be massive no-mans-lands, or tiny, cramped corridors. Part of this, i think, is from cramming already small corridors with detail.
I'll throw in my own opinions in considerably less time: you dont think enough about the why of detailing; have you read Grazr's excellent article on immersion? The detailing density is also a bit bipolar: some areas have detail up the wazoo, while others are just masses and masses of bare walls.
Blu's first spawn is such an unimpressive building. Why not make it two or more storeys? I think Blu's spawn has to look a little more imposing (though i am aware that its a stolen red building, yes). It looks like something you could rocket-jump over.
Gameplay: Walk times are generally way too big. Stage two particularly has: A large open space, a tight, painful corridor area, another large open space, and then a point hidden around a corner. No wonder its so easy to defend: its freaking miles!
There seems to be little medium space- it seems to be massive no-mans-lands, or tiny, cramped corridors. Part of this, i think, is from cramming already small corridors with detail.
As we are on about gameplay, might as well make my big post now i have played this map a lot of times now:
Stage 1 Point 1
Could do better as a building, it is rather hard to defend as attackers always get on the pipe, destroy sentries from there and jump on the point, i also like the point 1 better when you didn't have stairs near the point for defenders, so they can get up to the pipe building easily, leaving blue without any place to take hold of and attack from there, making fights for point quite boring.
Stage 1 Point 2
This is the point i dislike most, all routes beside one (and long) route that leaves you on small cliff quite far away from the point itself. The point area is open and flat, with smaller props everywhere, making it hard to attack and surprisingly enough, cramped. Point caps quite slow, giving red window to wipe blue out after successful attack. Point itself is hidden in a building and first time, you can barley notice it.
This point is also quite flat, only height difference you have access without fighting trough uphill struggle with red is the cliff you get after long tedious walk.
Stage 2 as a whole.
This stage is a mess, old one was more dynamic and logical, it was linear enough and spread into right direction. This one tough, spreads all over the place, in matter of fact, the two points are almost next to each other, there is just wall between the two. Instead begin linear and spreading out towards the point, it spreads out to the left. There is no any linearity to the battle, it spreads out, making it not fun to play on at all. You should consider replacing this stage with old one and modify it and detail it.
Stage 3 Point 1
Is actually ok, it problem is sniper deck and the underground that yyler post about.
Stage 3 Point 2
This thing is impossible to attack when there is engineer on the other team, you only got two routes to the area, one begin death trap in a deep pit, not to mention one sentry can cover both of them.
I know multistage a/d difficulty is meant to progress with the stages, but there is other ways to do it than making only two small routes to the area. It doesn't help spawn is close by and enemy got quite short spawn time.
Map as a whole.
Okay, this is going to sound blunt but here we go:
This map has been getting worse from the point you scrapped original stage 2, there is a lot of strange detailing, strange or too high height difference. All routes leading to places are just tight doorways, even a wide open canyon ends with small building you have to get trough to proceed to next area.
There is two flows to the map too, either blue overflows red before they can successfully defend anything, or it is just this slow fight progressing at snail pace. Stages after first one feel really wide and that they are spreading all over the place, they also seem to lack everything that made them fun back in alpha.
You honestly need to step back here, people are complaining that you are begin aggressive towards feedback and map seems to have lost it's fun, take a look at old alphas and try to look around what you did better when compared to this version, something needs to be done in any case.
(Sorry if there is any strange grammar or spelling here, i wrote his 9am after i woke up)
Stage 1 Point 1
Could do better as a building, it is rather hard to defend as attackers always get on the pipe, destroy sentries from there and jump on the point, i also like the point 1 better when you didn't have stairs near the point for defenders, so they can get up to the pipe building easily, leaving blue without any place to take hold of and attack from there, making fights for point quite boring.
Stage 1 Point 2
This is the point i dislike most, all routes beside one (and long) route that leaves you on small cliff quite far away from the point itself. The point area is open and flat, with smaller props everywhere, making it hard to attack and surprisingly enough, cramped. Point caps quite slow, giving red window to wipe blue out after successful attack. Point itself is hidden in a building and first time, you can barley notice it.
This point is also quite flat, only height difference you have access without fighting trough uphill struggle with red is the cliff you get after long tedious walk.
Stage 2 as a whole.
This stage is a mess, old one was more dynamic and logical, it was linear enough and spread into right direction. This one tough, spreads all over the place, in matter of fact, the two points are almost next to each other, there is just wall between the two. Instead begin linear and spreading out towards the point, it spreads out to the left. There is no any linearity to the battle, it spreads out, making it not fun to play on at all. You should consider replacing this stage with old one and modify it and detail it.
Stage 3 Point 1
Is actually ok, it problem is sniper deck and the underground that yyler post about.
Stage 3 Point 2
This thing is impossible to attack when there is engineer on the other team, you only got two routes to the area, one begin death trap in a deep pit, not to mention one sentry can cover both of them.
I know multistage a/d difficulty is meant to progress with the stages, but there is other ways to do it than making only two small routes to the area. It doesn't help spawn is close by and enemy got quite short spawn time.
Map as a whole.
Okay, this is going to sound blunt but here we go:
This map has been getting worse from the point you scrapped original stage 2, there is a lot of strange detailing, strange or too high height difference. All routes leading to places are just tight doorways, even a wide open canyon ends with small building you have to get trough to proceed to next area.
There is two flows to the map too, either blue overflows red before they can successfully defend anything, or it is just this slow fight progressing at snail pace. Stages after first one feel really wide and that they are spreading all over the place, they also seem to lack everything that made them fun back in alpha.
You honestly need to step back here, people are complaining that you are begin aggressive towards feedback and map seems to have lost it's fun, take a look at old alphas and try to look around what you did better when compared to this version, something needs to be done in any case.
(Sorry if there is any strange grammar or spelling here, i wrote his 9am after i woke up)
Last edited:
- Dec 16, 2008
- 818
- 245
oof... painful guys.
i've taken onboard almost all feedback i receive. - i've always had difficulty GETTING feedback out of people though. - i honestly don't know what i'm doing wrong in this regard. i try to get in on tests regularly, try to ask people what they think and try to engage people in discussions about ways to change/improve things, but whilst others are able to garner feedback easily, it just never seems to work out like that for me.
back in the earlier versions of this i was actually getting decent amounts of feedback, and was making changes based upon it. this was pretty good, and i was enjoying getting the feedback, but it started to trail off, and i haven't a clue as to why. I thought it was because people were having fewer things they felt needed pointing out, and that they were enjoying themselves on the map.
heck the last 3-5 tests i've been through i've been begging people to give me feedback both during and after the events.
the overall silence i was getting led me to believe that people were A: having fun, B: not seeing anything that was wrong to them. (and i'd vocalise this theory to players during the gametests... ya know to check if i was on the right track)
getting this now, well for one thing... it's too late unfortunately. there's one month left to this contest, but more than that i have exams and projects to focus on over this next month.
over the summer i'll see what i can do of course, but, for the contest... not much options available for me.
more than this:
wilson, sorry if you were offended by my comments the other day. it was late. i did appreciate your clipping-hunting, and certainly did not ignore it.
as for stage2: i scrapped it and started over because of feedback i was getting. i tried to find ways to make it work, but in the end, it was better to start from scratch then try to jerry rig something that just wasn't working. in the old stage2, every game played on it, red would consistently push blue back almost all the way to spawn when blue was trying to take the 2nd point. - it also was a case of something i created but just didn't feel right during gameplay, and the more i tried to fix this feeling of it being off, the more i realised that it just wasn't going to work.
i was having serious trouble figuring out how to handle stage 2, and my solution was eventually to go with a middle-building type solution, similar to what is in goldrush's and dustbowl's stage2 cp2.
i think in doing so however, i added too many additional paths along the sides of the main route. - paths that aren't used much, as opposed to paths that seperate players up. I'd say that there's a need to tweak connectivity and to cut down on tertiary routes.
also there's been a difficult issue involving the 2nd point - either people tell me it's too easy for blue to get to it, or they tell me it's too long/far-away. in the face of conflicting feedback like that i tried my best to interpret the best solution.
regarding my mindset on texturing/detailing: i had it in my mind to have a greater buildup of infrastructure across each stage, which i have attempted to realise by: stage1 being predominantly wooden, stage2 being wooden/metal based, and stage 3 being a metal/concrete mix. -would this be the root of the lack of cohesiveness that you are talking about?
as above, i'll repeat: i don't ignore feedback, and i'm actually quite shocked/surprised that people think i get mad/angry at receiving feedback or criticism.
i'll try to address this now.
i have trouble understanding nuances of things like tone of voice or cultural idioms and also have a tendency to take things literally. unfortunately this is how i'm built, and it can lead to misunderstandings, i am aware of this. if my responses have sounded heated or aggressive this has never been my intention and i'm sorry if i have ever slighted anyone because of it. further, by extension, i try hard to come across as easy going and good natured, even high spirited, but due to aforementioned shortcomings, well my attempts at light hearted humour can sometimes be... well i suppose i can hurt people without meaning to. again if i've ever upset anyone due to this, i apologise.
another facet of my personality is that of debate - i really enjoy a good back-and-forth, and i really enjoy asking "why". i'm not doing this to be cheeky, i just genuinely enjoy having a logical-based debate. - note: by debate i don't mean arguement. - if i've come across too strong when doing this, i'm sorry, i just get into the groove of it and i guess i kind of forget to consider that other people might not like this sort of thing.
yyler, i've never meant to offend you in the past, and am sorry if i have.
other things:
adding things like that small building you mentioned was in response to seeing red snipers seriously holding down that route previously. - maybe i've been over zealous in blocking sightlines perhaps.
i honestly don't know what might be eating away at the fun factor in the gameplay itself. perhaps it's a fundamental flaw from the base design that has only become apparent after people have learnt the layout of the map?
yyler: i had a fairly decent length set of responses to your screens, but on reaching your closing paragraph, and reading following messages, i'm reluctant to post these now, lest i offend or come across as unreceptive.
overall i agree with a fair amount of what you have highlighted, particularly gameplay related things (staircases for example).
i do remember your suggesting a 1/3 off the height in stage1, but it was something i forgot about amongst other things (both mapping related and real life related).
i've taken onboard almost all feedback i receive. - i've always had difficulty GETTING feedback out of people though. - i honestly don't know what i'm doing wrong in this regard. i try to get in on tests regularly, try to ask people what they think and try to engage people in discussions about ways to change/improve things, but whilst others are able to garner feedback easily, it just never seems to work out like that for me.
back in the earlier versions of this i was actually getting decent amounts of feedback, and was making changes based upon it. this was pretty good, and i was enjoying getting the feedback, but it started to trail off, and i haven't a clue as to why. I thought it was because people were having fewer things they felt needed pointing out, and that they were enjoying themselves on the map.
heck the last 3-5 tests i've been through i've been begging people to give me feedback both during and after the events.
the overall silence i was getting led me to believe that people were A: having fun, B: not seeing anything that was wrong to them. (and i'd vocalise this theory to players during the gametests... ya know to check if i was on the right track)
getting this now, well for one thing... it's too late unfortunately. there's one month left to this contest, but more than that i have exams and projects to focus on over this next month.
over the summer i'll see what i can do of course, but, for the contest... not much options available for me.
more than this:
wilson, sorry if you were offended by my comments the other day. it was late. i did appreciate your clipping-hunting, and certainly did not ignore it.
as for stage2: i scrapped it and started over because of feedback i was getting. i tried to find ways to make it work, but in the end, it was better to start from scratch then try to jerry rig something that just wasn't working. in the old stage2, every game played on it, red would consistently push blue back almost all the way to spawn when blue was trying to take the 2nd point. - it also was a case of something i created but just didn't feel right during gameplay, and the more i tried to fix this feeling of it being off, the more i realised that it just wasn't going to work.
i was having serious trouble figuring out how to handle stage 2, and my solution was eventually to go with a middle-building type solution, similar to what is in goldrush's and dustbowl's stage2 cp2.
i think in doing so however, i added too many additional paths along the sides of the main route. - paths that aren't used much, as opposed to paths that seperate players up. I'd say that there's a need to tweak connectivity and to cut down on tertiary routes.
also there's been a difficult issue involving the 2nd point - either people tell me it's too easy for blue to get to it, or they tell me it's too long/far-away. in the face of conflicting feedback like that i tried my best to interpret the best solution.
regarding my mindset on texturing/detailing: i had it in my mind to have a greater buildup of infrastructure across each stage, which i have attempted to realise by: stage1 being predominantly wooden, stage2 being wooden/metal based, and stage 3 being a metal/concrete mix. -would this be the root of the lack of cohesiveness that you are talking about?
what i really need is a definetion of "bizarre". in the game day i think someone also mentioned that the map is "weird". i have to admit i have trouble with this, because it's not quantified. what is the deviance of the map that is causing you to feel that this is the case?
as above, i'll repeat: i don't ignore feedback, and i'm actually quite shocked/surprised that people think i get mad/angry at receiving feedback or criticism.
i'll try to address this now.
i have trouble understanding nuances of things like tone of voice or cultural idioms and also have a tendency to take things literally. unfortunately this is how i'm built, and it can lead to misunderstandings, i am aware of this. if my responses have sounded heated or aggressive this has never been my intention and i'm sorry if i have ever slighted anyone because of it. further, by extension, i try hard to come across as easy going and good natured, even high spirited, but due to aforementioned shortcomings, well my attempts at light hearted humour can sometimes be... well i suppose i can hurt people without meaning to. again if i've ever upset anyone due to this, i apologise.
another facet of my personality is that of debate - i really enjoy a good back-and-forth, and i really enjoy asking "why". i'm not doing this to be cheeky, i just genuinely enjoy having a logical-based debate. - note: by debate i don't mean arguement. - if i've come across too strong when doing this, i'm sorry, i just get into the groove of it and i guess i kind of forget to consider that other people might not like this sort of thing.
yyler, i've never meant to offend you in the past, and am sorry if i have.
what has changed... well beside the obvious stage2 scrapping it's that i've added details, and perhaps this has led to the map feeling cramped.
other things:
adding things like that small building you mentioned was in response to seeing red snipers seriously holding down that route previously. - maybe i've been over zealous in blocking sightlines perhaps.
i honestly don't know what might be eating away at the fun factor in the gameplay itself. perhaps it's a fundamental flaw from the base design that has only become apparent after people have learnt the layout of the map?
yyler: i had a fairly decent length set of responses to your screens, but on reaching your closing paragraph, and reading following messages, i'm reluctant to post these now, lest i offend or come across as unreceptive.
overall i agree with a fair amount of what you have highlighted, particularly gameplay related things (staircases for example).
i do remember your suggesting a 1/3 off the height in stage1, but it was something i forgot about amongst other things (both mapping related and real life related).
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You know, i think we all been there with feedback issue and here is few tips for the future, they really help me out at least.
1. Do 2-3 tests on current version of the map, the biggest gameplay problems are usually ones that show up once people know their way around the map.
2. Go to chat and ask people opinions, a lot of times people are busy trying to kill that brass beast heavy or trying to push the cart.
3. Bot tests, while bots suck most of the time, they can be surprisingly good tool find out issues with layout.
4. Try doing testing by yourself, alone, in lan server. This might help find out clipping issues or bad sightlines.
5. Little changes! Sometimes is good idea to do little changes and make new version out of just them and see how they change things or make people react, surprisingly effective way to find out basic stuff.
Don't worry, i am not among those people who have been offended.
1. Do 2-3 tests on current version of the map, the biggest gameplay problems are usually ones that show up once people know their way around the map.
2. Go to chat and ask people opinions, a lot of times people are busy trying to kill that brass beast heavy or trying to push the cart.
3. Bot tests, while bots suck most of the time, they can be surprisingly good tool find out issues with layout.
4. Try doing testing by yourself, alone, in lan server. This might help find out clipping issues or bad sightlines.
5. Little changes! Sometimes is good idea to do little changes and make new version out of just them and see how they change things or make people react, surprisingly effective way to find out basic stuff.
Don't worry, i am not among those people who have been offended.
I'm not offended.
By "bizarre" I discovered that I meant things like the way to cp 1-2, or the height, or the detailing. It all adds up to what myself and others describe as strange. Basically, I'll reiterate this:
As far as mixing wood, metal and concrete as your progress through the map, that's fine, but you need to be more cognizant of how you're doing it, because as of now a lot of the ways you implement buildings feels off. Also, they don't necessarily need to be intermixed in each stage; take a look at Dust Bowl, which starts completely wooden, then goes wood/concrete, and then all concrete. Try to simplify your design and it'll just look better.
And it's alright to ask why people are saying things, but sometimes it's best to just let them talk for a moment. They may not know why right away. A lot of times, with people that have made so many maps and played so many maps in development, it's gut instinct, and they probably can't enumerate on why in the heat of battle.
By "bizarre" I discovered that I meant things like the way to cp 1-2, or the height, or the detailing. It all adds up to what myself and others describe as strange. Basically, I'll reiterate this:
As far as mixing wood, metal and concrete as your progress through the map, that's fine, but you need to be more cognizant of how you're doing it, because as of now a lot of the ways you implement buildings feels off. Also, they don't necessarily need to be intermixed in each stage; take a look at Dust Bowl, which starts completely wooden, then goes wood/concrete, and then all concrete. Try to simplify your design and it'll just look better.
And it's alright to ask why people are saying things, but sometimes it's best to just let them talk for a moment. They may not know why right away. A lot of times, with people that have made so many maps and played so many maps in development, it's gut instinct, and they probably can't enumerate on why in the heat of battle.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Dec 16, 2008
- 818
- 245
well, i've talked with a few people, done a bit of back-and-forth idea bouncing and have attempted to implement fixes to the map.
this update focuses mostly on gameplay fixes (op'd sentry spot on last area, 'hidden' cp1 on stage3, stage 1 walk distances, etc), but i've also done quite a few asthetic fixes/changes too.
hopefully less of a bizarre bazaar now and more of a fun experience.
this update focuses mostly on gameplay fixes (op'd sentry spot on last area, 'hidden' cp1 on stage3, stage 1 walk distances, etc), but i've also done quite a few asthetic fixes/changes too.
hopefully less of a bizarre bazaar now and more of a fun experience.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2867220/feedback/canyonfodder/canyonfodder1.zip
Some things apply to entire map (notably weird metal supports and metal doors in wooden walls). Just minor discrepancies/nitpicks, nothing major. Haven't done 3B yet.
Some things apply to entire map (notably weird metal supports and metal doors in wooden walls). Just minor discrepancies/nitpicks, nothing major. Haven't done 3B yet.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60000.jpg
Fences are needless and obstruct players shooting at each other over the edge. A couple crates are fine but remove all your knee-waist high fences that boarder play areas.
Blue circle: What is this space? Define it or remove it.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60001.jpg
1) Main routes deserve larger health packs
2) Needless option
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60002.jpg
1) Unnecassery structure: Stairs available on left should sufice. You're providing players with too many options.
2) Needless fence, more obstruction than useful piece of architecture.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60000.jpg
Remove this door to force BLU to move towards final CP. Also reduces RED direct LoS to exit at back there increasing BLU's chances for controlling territory once exiting door.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60004.jpg
1) Move higher or remove/replace with regular windows; reduce visual clutter at player level.
2) Unecassery visual clutter, cumbersome at player level.
3) Plug gap
4) Simplify roof. Too much complicated geometry where no one looks.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60005.jpg
Can you get on here? No? Visual clutter.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60006.jpg
Define fence. Cover whole ledge or not at all. Needs to be obvious to players, this is MESSY. Remove open doorway, looks like player access point.
What is function of secondary spawn? There's enough space in the other one.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60008.jpg
Self explinatory. Now you're just making it complicated for players.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60009.jpg
1) Cover it properly/with chicken wire or leave it exposed. This is visual pollution.
2) Remove this. Unnecassery. Complicates inside geometry needlessly (looks like a doorway).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60010.jpg
Needless height difference, room is tiny. Combine item drops.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60012.jpg
1)More path complications. Remove left blue entrance. These both go to the same place.
2) Remove another pointless height variation.
3) Change this silly window.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60013.jpg
1) remove this, it'll be in the way by adding in red wall for alcove. Makes stronger corner for BLU. This seemed to be an issue for you in tests.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60014.jpg
Conflicting information.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60015.jpg
Unnecassery visual information and inappropriate use of gameplay models.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60016.jpg
Accessible? If no, fully cordon with fence, if yes, remove fence. Define your space.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60017.jpg
Uuuuuuuuuuurgh.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60018.jpg
Simplify paths. Door protects against spam and you're obviously not doing this for performance reasons what with the fence adjacent. Or you could move the spawn to the left.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60019.jpg
Needless options to get into another safe zone.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60021.jpg
I played an entire round on this stage and never even noticed this.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60022.jpg
Simplify options.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60024.jpg
Over complicated architecture.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60025.jpg
You can't enter here, don't make it look like players can appear here. Visual pollution. Also change door texture, it looks like a spawn exit.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60026.jpg
Doorway is confusing and looks like a period dependant path when it is not. Obviously a nook for spies... but unneccasery complication for bad use of space.
The structure with the door and stairs is actually needless. These things can go ontop of other structures but this is a lot of unnecassery visual information at ground level.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60027.jpg
Inconsistant detailing. You've used 4 different styles of fence in 1 map. Define your style/theme and use no more than 2 different handrails (excluding the gameplay fence). Wood fences in wood areas are fine, handrails in industrial is fine, but stick to 1 fence in either stylised area.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60029.jpg
Too many options. Remove that ledge altogether, it adds nothing to gameplay and pollutes the area with "pretend" options. Remove sewer path as well.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60000.jpg
Stairs will have to go too.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60030.jpg
These both lead to the same area, what's the point? You seem to do this a lot. Increase linearity by removing the stairs (mostly hidden because of camera angle) or remove the smaller open doorway altogether to focus BLU through the main door and make decisions there.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60032.jpg
This doorway is needless, remove it, increase the size of the smaller exit on ground level. This will vicariously simplify the inner structure of the building.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60033.jpg
Tank is too cumbersome for the lack of space. Use a fence or something less intrusive. Also, add a sign here. CP is not directly visible.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60034.jpg
Final point is really hidden behind buildings and winding routes and there's almost no space in the air around it. It should be more open to help feel epic.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60035.jpg
Sewer route unnecassery.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60036.jpg
tiny sign is tiny. Fix this. Also, you might wanna give BLU a 64 unit height advantage to balance the reduced number of exits. Your final area has divulged into tiny winding paths with almost no combat space.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60037.jpg
Again, playable space so remove railing.
Fences are needless and obstruct players shooting at each other over the edge. A couple crates are fine but remove all your knee-waist high fences that boarder play areas.
Blue circle: What is this space? Define it or remove it.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60001.jpg
1) Main routes deserve larger health packs
2) Needless option
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60002.jpg
1) Unnecassery structure: Stairs available on left should sufice. You're providing players with too many options.
2) Needless fence, more obstruction than useful piece of architecture.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60000.jpg
Remove this door to force BLU to move towards final CP. Also reduces RED direct LoS to exit at back there increasing BLU's chances for controlling territory once exiting door.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60004.jpg
1) Move higher or remove/replace with regular windows; reduce visual clutter at player level.
2) Unecassery visual clutter, cumbersome at player level.
3) Plug gap
4) Simplify roof. Too much complicated geometry where no one looks.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60005.jpg
Can you get on here? No? Visual clutter.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60006.jpg
Define fence. Cover whole ledge or not at all. Needs to be obvious to players, this is MESSY. Remove open doorway, looks like player access point.
What is function of secondary spawn? There's enough space in the other one.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60008.jpg
Self explinatory. Now you're just making it complicated for players.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60009.jpg
1) Cover it properly/with chicken wire or leave it exposed. This is visual pollution.
2) Remove this. Unnecassery. Complicates inside geometry needlessly (looks like a doorway).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60010.jpg
Needless height difference, room is tiny. Combine item drops.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60012.jpg
1)More path complications. Remove left blue entrance. These both go to the same place.
2) Remove another pointless height variation.
3) Change this silly window.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60013.jpg
1) remove this, it'll be in the way by adding in red wall for alcove. Makes stronger corner for BLU. This seemed to be an issue for you in tests.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60014.jpg
Conflicting information.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60015.jpg
Unnecassery visual information and inappropriate use of gameplay models.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60016.jpg
Accessible? If no, fully cordon with fence, if yes, remove fence. Define your space.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60017.jpg
Uuuuuuuuuuurgh.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60018.jpg
Simplify paths. Door protects against spam and you're obviously not doing this for performance reasons what with the fence adjacent. Or you could move the spawn to the left.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60019.jpg
Needless options to get into another safe zone.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60021.jpg
I played an entire round on this stage and never even noticed this.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60022.jpg
Simplify options.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60024.jpg
Over complicated architecture.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60025.jpg
You can't enter here, don't make it look like players can appear here. Visual pollution. Also change door texture, it looks like a spawn exit.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60026.jpg
Doorway is confusing and looks like a period dependant path when it is not. Obviously a nook for spies... but unneccasery complication for bad use of space.
The structure with the door and stairs is actually needless. These things can go ontop of other structures but this is a lot of unnecassery visual information at ground level.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60027.jpg
Inconsistant detailing. You've used 4 different styles of fence in 1 map. Define your style/theme and use no more than 2 different handrails (excluding the gameplay fence). Wood fences in wood areas are fine, handrails in industrial is fine, but stick to 1 fence in either stylised area.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60029.jpg
Too many options. Remove that ledge altogether, it adds nothing to gameplay and pollutes the area with "pretend" options. Remove sewer path as well.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60000.jpg
Stairs will have to go too.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60030.jpg
These both lead to the same area, what's the point? You seem to do this a lot. Increase linearity by removing the stairs (mostly hidden because of camera angle) or remove the smaller open doorway altogether to focus BLU through the main door and make decisions there.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60032.jpg
This doorway is needless, remove it, increase the size of the smaller exit on ground level. This will vicariously simplify the inner structure of the building.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60033.jpg
Tank is too cumbersome for the lack of space. Use a fence or something less intrusive. Also, add a sign here. CP is not directly visible.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60034.jpg
Final point is really hidden behind buildings and winding routes and there's almost no space in the air around it. It should be more open to help feel epic.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60035.jpg
Sewer route unnecassery.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60036.jpg
tiny sign is tiny. Fix this. Also, you might wanna give BLU a 64 unit height advantage to balance the reduced number of exits. Your final area has divulged into tiny winding paths with almost no combat space.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/fodder/cp_canyonfodder_b60037.jpg
Again, playable space so remove railing.
Last edited:
- Dec 16, 2008
- 818
- 245
well here's a situation update:
coursework's due on monday, i'm 75% done with this
my last exam is on tuesday, i've done none, zilcho revision for this yet (damn coursework... worth more than the exam though)
that leaves me with tuesday night and most of wednesday to try and implement/fix/tweak the map for submission.
according to the link in the submission thread, i have until Wed 21:00 as I'm in London.
therefore, if i assume i'll need 1hr to compile (i.e. allows enough time for 3 compiles, incase something goes wrong), and another hour for post compilation tasks (cubemaps, packrat, packrat testing and uploading)
i'll have 23 hrs (i.e. no sleeping, no food, mapping crunch time) in which to get through the rather large and exhaustive amount of fixes and issues that have been highlighted.
... yeh i'm bloody crazy i know ¬_¬
I just gotta hope and pray that there's no power cuts or losses of the internet...
so, wish me luck ... please, i'll need it
edit:
also grazr, your images don't seem to be loading anymore, does dropbox have a limited lifetime for images or something?
coursework's due on monday, i'm 75% done with this
my last exam is on tuesday, i've done none, zilcho revision for this yet (damn coursework... worth more than the exam though)
that leaves me with tuesday night and most of wednesday to try and implement/fix/tweak the map for submission.
according to the link in the submission thread, i have until Wed 21:00 as I'm in London.
therefore, if i assume i'll need 1hr to compile (i.e. allows enough time for 3 compiles, incase something goes wrong), and another hour for post compilation tasks (cubemaps, packrat, packrat testing and uploading)
i'll have 23 hrs (i.e. no sleeping, no food, mapping crunch time) in which to get through the rather large and exhaustive amount of fixes and issues that have been highlighted.
... yeh i'm bloody crazy i know ¬_¬
I just gotta hope and pray that there's no power cuts or losses of the internet...
so, wish me luck ... please, i'll need it
edit:
also grazr, your images don't seem to be loading anymore, does dropbox have a limited lifetime for images or something?
Last edited:
- Dec 16, 2008
- 818
- 245
well, that's beta7 out the door
and that's me done for this contest...barring some kinda unforeseen crazy something or other involving an emergency recompile.
well, I had fun with this, and i'm pretty sure this is the largest/longest mapping project i've ever done (almost 6 months give or take). I'd like to believe I may have picked up some tips and hints on layout, gameplay and asthetics from all the feedback, and whilst I didn't get to implement all of those things here, I'll be looking forward to using them on future projects. hope people had fun in this contest and that the maps all bring people fun when played.
also:
good luck to all the contestants
and that's me done for this contest...barring some kinda unforeseen crazy something or other involving an emergency recompile.
well, I had fun with this, and i'm pretty sure this is the largest/longest mapping project i've ever done (almost 6 months give or take). I'd like to believe I may have picked up some tips and hints on layout, gameplay and asthetics from all the feedback, and whilst I didn't get to implement all of those things here, I'll be looking forward to using them on future projects. hope people had fun in this contest and that the maps all bring people fun when played.
also:
good luck to all the contestants
