About last night...

Status
Not open for further replies.

cyked

L3: Member
Dec 18, 2009
132
89
I think that giving flame steam group admin was a bad decision. There was no reason for him to have it, nor was there a reason to take it away from shmitz and aly (and whoever else still had the star). I agree with whoever said it that flame should have had server admin and that is it. I have yet to see flame be abusive with the in-game admin (other than the lollable moments like flameday)
 
Mar 23, 2010
1,872
1,696
I'm astounded I had nothing to do with the results this time around. To me, it was just one of those things bound to happen sooner or later.

yep i guess its "not just you."

flame did some good stuff on the server, but chat admin was probably a bad idea. i agree that aly, boojum, shmitz, and rav (?) should get chat admin back.
 

drp

aa
Oct 25, 2007
2,273
2,628
9:11 PM - Littleedge: Flame shouldn't have Chatroom admin. He was doing fine when he had rcon and ftp stuff back in the days of the comp ctf contest or whenever he had it.
9:11 PM - Littleedge: He should stay Server Admin. He is useful.
9:11 PM - Littleedge: But he's too banhappy for a chatroom.

Oh and this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/586461/TF2M/flame4impeachment.txt
not sure how anyone can defend that kind of shit? when did this happen?
id have banned him on the spot for that stupid crap.
 

Lord Ned

L420: High Member
Feb 11, 2008
421
174
I believe the day or two before he lost his chat admin. I'm not sure however, because I wasn't there for it.
 

Jimmy

L420: High Member
Jul 6, 2009
421
228
I was quite torn on this argument to begin with. On one hand, Ive heard complaints from many people about flames behaviour and he can be very annoying at times, but he can't help that. I also realize he is a valuable resource, and helped a lot during the comp ctf contest, and helped with my map. If he is getting carried away with admin, then sure take it away. If he isn't responding to infractions/warnings/ whatever the hell we have nowadays, then give him a temporary ban. I mean, Flame is not different from anyone else in this community. If for example, Blob was being a douche in chat, and being an arse to people on the forums (not that blob would) Shit would get real, and action would be taken. Simply because Flame has helped so much in the community or because he is a link to the comp scene, which I seem suprised was Nine's main argument, simply because of the fiasco with Furnace in comp. Sure its great to have links to the comp scene, but if Flame keeps acting the way he is acting towards certain individuals, don't simply let him away with it because he is a valuable resource.

Just my 2 cents on this situation. Also why is that expression 2 cents? why not 2 pence?
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
really tired of these threads, complaints in chat, and otherwise about his behaviour when most of the time no problem exists beyond someone's personal opinion or perspective on the circumstances.

This arguement became invalid when Flame starts using his admin powers irresponsibly on members on this community.

I'd like to go one day without people running to an admin whining about how his opinions are different or how he hurt their feelings and should be banned.

This discussion is about him using his powers and less so that he's a certified arse which we already know. We let him on the server team as a resource and he proved he couldn't handle the powers that came with the position, regardless of how helpful he is.

Being a passive aggressive person is fine and will land you several warnings when it becomes too much, which has also been the case, but not when it becomes physical.
 

Flame

aa
Jul 19, 2009
368
865
Being a passive aggressive person is fine and will land you several warnings when it becomes too much, which has also been the case, but not when it becomes physical.

lolphysical

I think i kicked like maybe one or two people out of chat. I apologize if they have any bruising or permanent scarring on their bodies as a result.

also I see no reason to do anything but troll seeing as tmp isnt banned for that post.
 

Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
aa
May 19, 2008
1,767
2,820
I'm out of town, so all I know about what has gone on is what is posted here. And again, I am not advocating for flame, he was irresponsible and drp took his powers away, rightfully so.

My point here is that flame isn't the only obnoxious and rude person here. I can be obnoxious and rude. And I won't name names, but there are a lot of users with less than splendid attitudes or behaviour at times. But when flame is around everyone puts on their sophistication pants and take offense at the smallest of things. It's dumb and annoying to deal with.

Worse is that no one lets him have his opinion on anything. I'm looking a t a few particular users here. Flame says something you disagree with, you spend the next ten minutes arguing, essentially having egged him on, then complain about how he argued. It's the pattern reflected in that chat log, a pattern constantly occurring.

Our community is incapable of dealing with problems like adults. The swaty affair was the same way. You won't just ignore it and move on. You'd rather make an ass of yourself and our community trying to get someone who isn't a problem until you make them one, banned. It's stupid. You act like utter morons and wonder why all our mature members left.

It's because, quite sadly, our userbase has gone from a group of mature members dedicated to mapping and with a serious interest in level design to a party of dramatic babies who can't deal with shit they don't like. I have a little story I like to tell about a forum I joined early 2008, whose prominent members went by names like Mangy and Youme. These people were generally abrasive but highly talented mappers. And I didn't whine about them being dicks, I made friends with them, knowing how valuable a friendship with people like them could be. Youme was a huge help for me when I was working on Stovepipe, Mangy is still abrasive as hell to this day but he knows what he is talking about.

I credit me getting as far as I have in this community by putting personalities aside. I'd be nowhere without my relations with prominent community figures.

My opposite was Chrono, whom I doubt any of you know of, but he joined a while before me and pretty much spent every day until he ragequit tf2 fighting about youme's attitude. And then me, as I rose through the ranks of the community while he sat the bottom, unable to deal with one person's bad attitude.

Even today my friends list is still composed of people who I may or may not care for in one way or another, but are valuable contacts. And it's easy to see the rewards of my networking, it's the secret behind my success and the answer to the circulating question of why I am where I am when I have little product to back up my position n this community and others.

I probably just burnt down what I have spent two and a half years building to make a point, and I hope it is worth it. But I have a sad feeling the community won't change. It has been going downhill for the past year at an alarming rate.

I guess that's just the sad effect of growth.
 
Last edited:

Okrag

Wall Staples
aa
Jun 10, 2009
1,029
655
One thing all you people need to do is keep these arguments out of chat. Right now we have a link leading to our chat promising mapping help on what may as well be the blog. When people join chat and see these huge arguments going on it isn't exactly a good introduction.
 

Jack Riguel

L10: Glamorous Member
Jul 19, 2009
721
254
Our community is incapable of dealing with problems like adults. The swaty affair was the same way. You won't just ignore it and move on. You'd rather make an ass of yourself and our community trying to get someone who isn't a problem until you make them one, banned. It's stupid. You act like utter morons and wonder why all our mature members left.

It's because, quite sadly, our userbase has gone from a group of mature members dedicated to mapping and with a serious interest in level design to a party of dramatic babies who can't deal with shit they don't like. I have a little story I like to tell about a forum I joined early 2008, whose prominent members went by names like Mangy and Youme. These people were generally abrasive but highly talented mappers. And I didn't whine about them being dicks, I made friends with them, knowing how valuable a friendship with people like them could be. Youme was a huge help for me when I was working on Stovepipe, Mangy is still abrasive as hell to this day but he knows what he is talking about.

This. Was keeping out of this topic till the bigger picture was opened. This really has less to do with flame and more to do with the community as a whole. If we all acted more maturely this topic wouldn't even be happening. If someone does something wrong, and there is proof, the chain of command deals with it. End of story.

But then again... welcome to the internet. Thar be no adults here.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
Is all i keep hearing is "flame is useful so that excuses him abusing and trolling the majority of this community". If it wasn't for that fact i'm sure he would have been banned a long time ago. Nothing excuses someone from kicking and bullying members of this community. That's not how someone should act, especially when they represent the community in an official capacity. Flame acted as if this would never be an issue if he got power, he even promised DrP he would act more responsibly. Low and behold we have this scenario.

I've been in plenty of communities and sometimes growth has a profound affect, just as Nineaxis pointed out. But Mangy and YM are nothing like Flame; we're dealing with a more extreme case and a different level of tolerence.

Flame is impacting on a huge portion of this community, what's important is that that impact seems to be negative (even if he has positive influences as well). Flame is not the only one who can run the servers and provide feedback. This is something that has been handled fine for 2 years. Some people may miss Flame, but the community will not be any worse for wear; getting peoples maps out in the competitive community is all well and good, but only a tiny portion of what this community is about. Does this warrant tolerance of flame's behaviour as he drives those attempting to learn Hammer (and help those trying to learn Hammer) away, in favour of getting 1 or 2 peoples maps in rotation in a competitive league?

should i have to sit through dayly complaints about Flame and only Flame? Nine, you reason that there are plenty of other obnoxious community members. This is true and i don't doubt you might even consider putting myself under that banner. But how often do they receive complaints against them? Should we ignore the fact that Flame aggrivates so many people? Does that sound responsible?

There's simply no justification for the way he behaves. Whether that's with or without administrative powers.

I agree that he is a capable individual, if he wasn't i wouldn't have asked for him to be on my server team. But he just doesn't seem to be compatable with the social rules of the community. He ignores warning after warning and when finally given the position he faught for, claiming it would be different, he kicks a bunch of people from steam chat and mutes a bunch of people in the server because he doesn't like what they have to say. An extreme no other admin, Mangy, YM or otherwise, has so obnoxiously attempted.
 
Last edited:

Scotland Tom

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 19, 2008
332
64
As someone with an interest in mapping (but a complete lack of time to really engage in it) I've always appreciated the great community and resource TF2M has been despite the fact that I've become more of a lurker than an active member. Regardless of my level of activity I find it an absolute shame to see such playground childishness on full display in forums and in the chat.

TF2M is a great place for anyone interested in TF2 mapping, Source mapping in general, and the larger world of level design as a whole. At this point it absolutely does not matter who did what, how power was abused, whose feelings got hurt, or anything else. This is the kind of situation that ought to be taken care of quickly and quietly by those in charge and not splayed out for all the world to see. Not doing so only serves to soil the great accomplishments (recognized by VALVe themselves) of the members here, damage the community and tarnish the overall image and reputation of TF2M.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but here's my advice...

This thread should be locked.
This issue should be resolved by admins/mods in a private forum and via PMs
And everyone needs to grow a pair and remember that the internet often causes people to act like ignoramuses and degenerates, it's best to simply GET OVER IT.
 

Fraz

Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.
aa
Dec 28, 2008
944
1,152
I've been reluctant to post here, for the main reason of this doesn't really affect me since I have never taken offence to anything flame has said, however I know people who have. I know if I have a problem, I man up and talk to them via steam or forum PMs, something I've not had to do in this community so far. If talking man to man about somebody to their face won't stop then I block them, maybe for a week to a month. After I unblock them I give them a week or so before re-blocking them and never hearing from them again. Making such a fuss over something, sure this thread is about flame unnecessarily kicking people, but just like comes up in every thread about flame, is his personality. If you can't bring yourself to block somebody on steam and not pay attention to them again, well then: that's your problem and your problem alone.
 

Penguin

Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome
aa
May 21, 2009
2,039
1,484
I think the fact that a single member's attitude can spart an eight page topic consisting of posts the length of those above mine speaks volumes about the magnitude of this conflict.

Whichever way the wind blows, doesn't really matter, to me.

And I won't name names, but there are a lot of users with less than splendid attitudes or behaviour at times.

exellent point. that's why we don't give these other unnamed individuals the power over others.

And nine, I can't help but feel like your post is best summarized as; "act like jerks are gods among men because they can get you places."

I for one, do not subscribe to the belief that the end justifies the means.
 
Last edited:

Ida

deer
aa
Jan 6, 2008
2,289
1,372
You make me feel stupid, Nine.

And I thank you for that. I think it's a good idea for me to make this my last post in a thread like this, and I hope others do that too.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
I think i can summarise important points effectively like this:

TF2maps is about learning hammer and making great looking maps (that also play well).

TF2maps was not specifically about getting maps officialised, this is a perk we enjoy thanks to Valve's manifesto regarding online public communities.

YM managed to get Hoodoo official without Flame's help, proof that we do not need Flame to achieve this feat.

He is an asset, but not as important as the community that was here before him.

I say this because i'm sick of hearing "flame is the sole reason coldfront went official and so we should keep him around and ignore the fact he is harassing the less capable TF2 members". I'm pretty sure Coldfront went official for a number of reasons, including Icarus's skills as a level designer.

I have no doubt that Flame's efforts were substantial and greatly appreciated by those involved, but for each individual Flame helps, he hurts 5 others and many more vicariously simply by being himself/present.
 
Last edited:

Lord Ned

L420: High Member
Feb 11, 2008
421
174
My point here is that flame isn't the only obnoxious and rude person here. I can be obnoxious and rude. And I won't name names, but there are a lot of users with less than splendid attitudes or behaviour at times. But when flame is around everyone puts on their sophistication pants and take offense at the smallest of things. It's dumb and annoying to deal with.

So quit. Don't want to put up with it? Quit. Boom. You're free of putting up with it.

Our community is incapable of dealing with problems like adults. The swaty affair was the same way. You won't just ignore it and move on. You'd rather make an ass of yourself and our community trying to get someone who isn't a problem until you make them one, banned. It's stupid. You act like utter morons and wonder why all our mature members left.
See, this is just like trying to ignore the pink elephant in the room. There's obviously a problem in both the Swaty case, and the Flame case, etc. You want us to just act like there isn't a problem and life is all dandy, and we don't have a thorn stuck in our side digging away at us.

Even today my friends list is still composed of people who I may or may not care for in one way or another, but are valuable contacts. And it's easy to see the rewards of my networking, it's the secret behind my success and the answer to the circulating question of why I am where I am when I have little product to back up my position n this community and others.
Heh.

TF2M is a great place for anyone interested in TF2 mapping, Source mapping in general, and the larger world of level design as a whole. At this point it absolutely does not matter who did what, how power was abused, whose feelings got hurt, or anything else. This is the kind of situation that ought to be taken care of quickly and quietly by those in charge and not splayed out for all the world to see. Not doing so only serves to soil the great accomplishments (recognized by VALVe themselves) of the members here, damage the community and tarnish the overall image and reputation of TF2M.


Also this. We shouldn't have 'trouble' members per say when we have these connections. Valve obviously trusts us enough as a respectable site for mapping or they wouldn't link to us or any of the such. Yet they do. Therefor, it's our job to live up to their expectations. Some members create a hostile environment, both for those coming in and for those already here. This is not up to expectation, and should be dealt with.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.