A possible backburner fix (dun dun DUUUN)

[Caliostro]

That, or you're moving correctly.

I was going to say I'm sorry for the harshness, as I was in a HORRIBLE mood this morning, but I do stick by everything I said. Even that. Pyros existed before they had airblast, sure it wasn't numerous, but they got the buff to the normal flame and then you could actually do stuff. If you run pyro like you used to have to, then you can get near people.

Unless your moving makes you invisible you're still a pretty fat red blob walking around with a very visible flamethrower. Sure you can stick to walls, take alternative routes, but all of that is academical against people who actually look around.

Tell, without airblast, how exactly do you deal with a decent Soldier or Demo? They both have tools to push you away on a single hit, as well as annihilate your health bar on a single hit. Both a Demo and a Soldier can simply push you away with their first rocket/grenade hit (which you can't avoid if you're close enough to flame them, and can't defend from without airblast) and finish you off in any way they see fit way before you kill them.

Adding to this, Heavies are a negatory for direct attack, unless you're suicidal, as they heavily outdamage and outlive you.

Scouts can easily get away from your flame, since you have no airblast to stall them. Yes, you can follow up with the shotgun/flare, but if you didn't get them with the flame to being with, they'll outdamage you, not to mention they'll have a much easier time kiting you around the map or running from you than you will.

Medics are faster than you, can nearly tank you if they stay out of close flame range, have self-regeneration and are generally accompanied. If you can't stall them or push away their company, you won't last long.

In other words, you'll only be almost as effective against 3 classes: Spy, which is your fodder anyways, except without AB he has a better chance of making a run for it, engineer, and you still loose the ability to reflect sentry rockets, and sniper, against which it's pretty much "either he hits the first shot and the pyro dies, or he's usually dead".

For instances, a Scout is much better at that job, as they're smaller, faster, and consequently harder to see, while retaining an equally deadly capacity at close range and a better ability to run once things inevitably go tits up.

And yes, the pyro used to not have airblast. And it was such a balanced class that they decided to never add anything, like, say, airblast... right? Generally classes are buffed because they were fine... Yeah...

Except the huntsman is better at close range. I haven't seen anyone who can consistently headshot people with the rifle at close range. And definitely not with the rifle fully charged.

Except it's not. It's more demanding of player skill, yes, but to be honest I usually beat huntsman snipers as a rifle sniper at any range, including close up. I shoot faster and he can't avoid it. It's always a matter of whether I miss or not.

That said, what good is a full charge shot if you're dead before you get it? Charged shots are unnecessary for about 80% of the game. They're only to be used against engie buildings, for a full charge headshot on a heavy with "heavy" medic support, or against an important target you can't headshot (usually a medic sitting behind cover with only an arm/leg out). For everything else charged shots are unnecessary. Quickscope headshots are faster, safer and kill just as effectively.

Seriously, the Huntsman is only any good for the purpose of making bad snipers feel ok. It's inferior to the Rifle in performance in every area.

Yea, I know this but the flare gun is much more situational in my experience, and the shotgun is decent at midrange, as well as an all-round weapon. It's not like I'm doubling the damage, it's just something which would help it out a bit, and encourage more people to use a flare gun.

It's still unnecessary. As it stands they both have their place.

You obviously missed the part where I said "unlit napalm/whatever can be removed by shooting it. As for the timer, stickybombs much? Really, stickybombs work just fine like that, they aren't "completely overpowered" at area denial.

Sticky bombs explode instantly, they do not create a wall of fire. They also don't spread over a huge area. Besides, that's the sticky's only functionality, it doesn't have a flamethrower attached to compensate for lack of range. And they're bordering on overpowered as is.

Besides, that would be overlapping roles.

So basically it's jarate for pyros? That just makes jarate less useful. If you're flanking someone, you don't want to alert them by jarateing them first.

As I specified extensively, it would only work for fire damage, which means it doesn't overlap the jarate's role, in the same manner that the heavy's sandvich doesn't overlap the medic's role.

As for alerting them, if you're catching them from behind you already have the BB's crits, you wouldn't need mini-crits.

 

[lana]

Well excuse me, I didn't realise TF2 had to be realistic. The fact is, most new players wouldn't realise that the backburner would do extra damage when attacking from behind anyways. All it would take would be adding "shoot napalm to make it disappear" to the hints on the loading page.

New players will know the backburner crits from behind after they're killed with it, so it's a learning-by-death experience. The napalm hint will probably come up very rarely, and it still makes no sense. TF2 isn't realistic, but it's grounded. There are rules: we have gravity, guns push things back, that rotating gun thing shoots you. Anyone who looks at the napalm will think immediately that it's just a decal, that it'll explode, or that you just won't do shit. Bullets usually don't make liquid disappear. And what the hell is with "bits" of napalm?

By the way, what the backburner needs is a buff that makes it more useful tactically, and less useful when attacking head on. So making it do extra damage from the front is stupid, because you're not supposed to be attacking from the front. You shouldn't need a boost in speed because you're supposed to be ambushing and flanking people, from behind.

The backburner is strategy. The flamethrower is for more head-on assaults, whereas the backburner encourages flanking. If you're using the backburner head-on, you're going to die faster than with the flamethrower because you won't score any crits or be able to knock back projectiles.

Besides, an alt fire for the backburner would make the class more interesting and unique.

I think that the only player class that can (without assistance) light players on fire and reflect projectiles is already unique enough.

 

[Sel]

I'd be happy with it if behind wasn't a small area of their back :\

 

[TMP]

TIME FOR TMP TO TEAR DOWN AN ARGUMENT PIECE BY PIECE

Unless your moving makes you invisible you're still a pretty fat red blob walking around with a very visible flamethrower. Sure you can stick to walls, take alternative routes, but all of that is academical against people who actually look around.

A nice preface, nothing to really debate here. I suppose, except that even then people who look around are vulnurable in a different way.

Tell, without airblast, how exactly do you deal with a decent Soldier or Demo? They both have tools to push you away on a single hit, as well as annihilate your health bar on a single hit. Both a Demo and a Soldier can simply push you away with their first rocket/grenade hit (which you can't avoid if you're close enough to flame them, and can't defend from without airblast) and finish you off in any way they see fit way before you kill them.

What you do in the situation is get the upper hand in the first part and outdps him. Standing next to a soldier is good if he's looking the other way, same with a demoman. If they push you away, RETREAT. If you cannot get back in without taking damage (And generally if you're hit, he's able to hit you if you come back), you need to deploy a hit and run strat. Remember, you're not entitled to only your flamethrower as well. Secondaries make a very useful hit and run tool, especially the flare gun. You probably play an aggressive style, and although that is useful, you need to sometimes become passive. If you were to run backburner, you probably would have trouble against soldiers primarily because of this.

Adding to this, Heavies are a negatory for direct attack, unless you're suicidal, as they heavily outdamage and outlive you.

Come on, the biggest thing I think most people say is that puff and sting works on heavies. The sting part does. The puff? Not a perceptive one. In the case, you would never attack a heavy directly on in the first place. If you hit him with backcrits he'll go down if you're using backburner. If you're not, about a half second of flame and an axtinguish is good, but solid flame connection is also very deadly. This is also a good technique to use a secondary in.

Scouts can easily get away from your flame, since you have no airblast to stall them. Yes, you can follow up with the shotgun/flare, but if you didn't get them with the flame to being with, they'll outdamage you, not to mention they'll have a much easier time kiting you around the map or running from you than you will.

Scouts are a pain in the ass even with the airblast, you don't have much control with them. You really need to deploy tactics to get them close to you, or become damn adept with your secondary. If you don't have walls, airblast is no help. Likewise, if you don't have corners, you can't lure them to you.

Medics are faster than you, can nearly tank you if they stay out of close flame range, have self-regeneration and are generally accompanied. If you can't stall them or push away their company, you won't last long.

Likewise, I don't think you are quite... understanding of the damage fire has. It'll snap a medic quickly. Secondaries help as well, and don't underestimate the good ol' ambush or flank tactic to catch a pocket off guard. Generally though, you shouldn't be gunning full fledged for the pocket in most cases.

In other words, you'll only be almost as effective against 3 classes: Spy, which is your fodder anyways, except without AB he has a better chance of making a run for it, engineer, and you still loose the ability to reflect sentry rockets, and sniper, against which it's pretty much "either he hits the first shot and the pyro dies, or he's usually dead".

The spy part I agree with. Engineer, COME ON MAN. Reflect sentry rockets? You are pulling shit out of your ass at this point, just trying to make airblast sound like a godsend; I don't know about you, but I am a maniac with the airblast and TRUST ME, I don't generally go for SENTRY ROCKETS unless I am just doing something crazy. And the sniper thing is not much anyways.

For instances, a Scout is much better at that job, as they're smaller, faster, and consequently harder to see, while retaining an equally deadly capacity at close range and a better ability to run once things inevitably go tits up.

The pyro... eh, I'm gonna say this. The pyro isn't an ambush class, nor a hit and run class, nor a tank class. He's a strange hybrid of them all. You kinda have to play in a certain way to get that. Scout's gonna do a better job of hit and run, because he's designed for that. The spy is gonna do a better job of ambushing, as he's more designed for that.

And yes, the pyro used to not have airblast. And it was such a balanced class that they decided to never add anything, like, say, airblast... right? Generally classes are buffed because they were fine... Yeah...

Eh, he was underpowered. The flame damage change really fixed that though. Airblast is a good thing as well. I would never want them to remove it at all. I'm just saying.. and I want every one in the future to take this lesson to heart.

DO NOT RELY 100% ON THE AIRBLAST
It's a class changer, but it's not the class.

EDIT: At this point I won't be replying much to this thread, so if you want to continue, Caliostro, either add me on steam or pm me.

 

[Numerous]

New players will know the backburner crits from behind after they're killed with it, so it's a learning-by-death experience. The napalm hint will probably come up very rarely, and it still makes no sense. TF2 isn't realistic, but it's grounded. There are rules: we have gravity, guns push things back, that rotating gun thing shoots you. Anyone who looks at the napalm will think immediately that it's just a decal, that it'll explode, or that you just won't do shit. Bullets usually don't make liquid disappear. And what the hell is with "bits" of napalm?

First of all, people wouldn't think that a burst of gas that comes from a flamethrower would extinguish burning teammates. It works fine though, and people learn by people yelling at them "you noob why the f**k didn't you bloody extinguish me with your airblast?". How did you learn that you could destroy the stickies by shooting them, anyways? Answer: It was a hint in the loading menu. I don't see why you couldn't just inform people via the loading menu, then have some effect on the napalm when its shot, like it "flaring up" the patch that was shot, then that part of the patch disappearing. And if they wonder "how does that work?" Then People can answer "the same way a jar of piss makes the difference between a heavy staying in one piece after a rocket, and being blown into smithereens.

The backburner is strategy. The flamethrower is for more head-on assaults, whereas the backburner encourages flanking. If you're using the backburner head-on, you're going to die faster than with the flamethrower because you won't score any crits or be able to knock back projectiles.

1. The backburner doesn't stop you from earning random crits. Not just that, if you circle strafe you're pretty much guaranteed a crit or two (90 degree angle).
2. Some classes have bullets, and for the classes that aren't using them, the airblast isn't that useful in defending yourself when charging anyways (especially since the direct hit, that makes it really annoying). And when you get there, some guaranteed crits from strafing are pretty useful.

I think that the only player class that can (without assistance) light players on fire and reflect projectiles is already unique enough.

Unique compared to other classes, sure, but I've played a few games where you can reflect projectiles, and I've played games where you can light people on fire, and I've played games where you can do both.
Besides, the main word there was interesting.

 

[Tinker]

give the backburner a secondary fire charge like the targe has, but costs 100 ammo

 

[Retroid]

give the backburner a secondary fire charge like the targe has, but costs 100 ammo

Hang on I think I'm having a House moment... But what if right click was mini-charge, much faster then the Demomans but only for the distance of the flamethrower's reach and if hit from behind the pyro could latch on to a player, slow them right down (like the pyro's being dragged, perhaps with the pyro having some input into the direction) whilst delivering base burn damage. He lets go if damaged or if he chooses to (if that's OP or boring perhaps 20ish seconds).

Just a fun little idea.

 

[Caliostro]

TIME FOR TMP TO TEAR DOWN AN ARGUMENT PIECE BY PIECE

TIME FOR ME TO TEAR DOWN YOUR ARGUMENT PIECE BY PIECE!

Think of it as a multiplayer game really.

What you do in the situation is get the upper hand in the first part and outdps him. Standing next to a soldier is good if he's looking the other way, same with a demoman.

Except you can't outdps him unless he's sleeping, or looking at yesteryear, at which point any other class can kill him just as fast if not faster, with the exception possesses no advantageous characteristic to sneak around.

A single rocket/grenade will almost/definitely halve your health and put you way outside of flame range. The second will kill you before you have time to finish them off with the shotgun/flare.

Can you kill them if they're "looking the other way"? Why yeah, easily... Much like any other class.

If they push you away, RETREAT.

At which point you accomplished nothing as there are a million and a half ways of stopping afterburn currently.

If you cannot get back in without taking damage (And generally if you're hit, he's able to hit you if you come back), you need to deploy a hit and run strat.

Except since you don't have airblast at that point you're pretty much at the soldier's or demo's mercy. A rocket/sticky/grenade will get you if you run due to AoE. Woopsy.

But ok, hit and run? So it's more of a hit and run class? Didn't we just ascertained the scout is way better at that? Nevermind, let's move along.

Remember, you're not entitled to only your flamethrower as well. Secondaries make a very useful hit and run tool, especially the flare gun.

Every other class has a shotgun and most classes have either a superior weapon for that range (think Sniper, rockets, stickies, etc) or more health to compensate for it (think Heavy).

The flare gun is good, but it's a suppression weapon as I mentioned before. Without airblast it's very unreliable for the same reason any other non-AoE projectile weapon is.

You probably play an aggressive style, and although that is useful, you need to sometimes become passive. If you were to run backburner, you probably would have trouble against soldiers primarily because of this.

I do favor aggressive styles, but I know how to play passive too. Here's the catch: Soldiers/Demos have AoE to flush me out, Scouts have the speed and weapons to make better use of cover than I do, and heavies generally play "peekaboo" style a lot more effectively if you disregard airblast.

Come on, the biggest thing I think most people say is that puff and sting works on heavies. The sting part does. The puff? Not a perceptive one. In the case, you would never attack a heavy directly on in the first place. If you hit him with backcrits he'll go down if you're using backburner. If you're not, about a half second of flame and an axtinguish is good, but solid flame connection is also very deadly. This is also a good technique to use a secondary in.

You're still assuming you're going to get them from behind when you have no good reason to.

Still, yes, if you get them from behind you can kill them, just as any other class really...

That said, Heavy will easily outdamage and outlive you otherwise. Without anything to push them away, they can simply either jump up to your face with the minigun and cut you to pieces, or take out the shotgun and kill you since they can actually tank you.

Besides, they too have the option to run away, and in that case, you're a bad place if you try to go after him.

Scouts are a pain in the ass even with the airblast, you don't have much control with them. You really need to deploy tactics to get them close to you, or become damn adept with your secondary. If you don't have walls, airblast is no help. Likewise, if you don't have corners, you can't lure them to you.

...I thought you "studied" the pyro...

Airblast has longer range than the flame, and causes the target to be shot up in the air, which you can then use to land a flare (or several shotgun rounds) on target, which they can't avoid since it takes them a second to get the second jump anyways (assuming they're good scouts that remember they can double jump AND assuming they hadn't double jumped already).

Even without walls the airblast isa godsend, it DOES give you a small level of control over any class. A small but very necessary level of control.

Likewise, I don't think you are quite... understanding of the damage fire has. It'll snap a medic quickly. Secondaries help as well, and don't underestimate the good ol' ambush or flank tactic to catch a pocket off guard. Generally though, you shouldn't be gunning full fledged for the pocket in most cases.

I think you're overestimating the damage fire does and underestimating the blutsauger...

Here's some objective data:

Flamethrower: # Damage up to ~210 units: 6 to 8 damage per particle (135-180/sec)
# Damage at ~360 units: 4 to 5 per particle (90-112.5/sec)

Blutsauger:
# Point Blank: 10-15 (100-150/sec)
# Medium Range: 5-10 (50-100/sec)
# Long Range: 5-6 (50-60/sec)
Health gain: 3 (30/sec) [fires 10 needles per second so that's 30 hp a second if you don't miss]


As far as damage goes, the flamethrower is only winning by 30 damage, which is exactly what the blutsauger gives the medic per second if he's hitting you. If the medic stays just off the "very close range" of the flamethrower, or dances around you to cause less particles to hit him, he will he able to tank you. Again, he's also faster than you.

Engineer, COME ON MAN. Reflect sentry rockets? You are pulling shit out of your ass at this point, just trying to make airblast sound like a godsend; I don't know about you, but I am a maniac with the airblast and TRUST ME, I don't generally go for SENTRY ROCKETS unless I am just doing something crazy.

Maybe you're not as good as you think you are? Just putting it out there.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa24G8opXZg"]YouTube- Reflection rampage - TF2 frag movie[/ame]

It's definitely possible. [I'd recommend skipping to around 1:50] I've done it myself too. Sure sentry rockets aren't my favorite pick, simply because you need to take a few shots to trigger them, but they're very much an option. Specially since you can trigger them "on demand" so to speak, so you know exactly when they're coming. Specially when you're circle strafing a sentry, airblasting the rockets can be the difference.

The pyro... eh, I'm gonna say this. The pyro isn't an ambush class, nor a hit and run class, nor a tank class. He's a strange hybrid of them all. You kinda have to play in a certain way to get that. Scout's gonna do a better job of hit and run, because he's designed for that. The spy is gonna do a better job of ambushing, as he's more designed for that.

Didn't you just say:

you need to deploy a hit and run strat.

So is this a "jack of all trades, master of none" situation?

Eh, he was underpowered. The flame damage change really fixed that though. Airblast is a good thing as well. I would never want them to remove it at all. I'm just saying.. and I want every one in the future to take this lesson to heart.

DO NOT RELY 100% ON THE AIRBLAST
It's a class changer, but it's not the class.

And all I'm saying is

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RELY 100% ON IT, BUT IF YOU'RE TRYING TO STATE IT'S NOT CURRENTLY A CRUCIAL PART OF THE CLASS YOU'RE OBJECTIVELY PROVEN WRONG

That's all. The game changed a lot since it was first released, at this point, without airblast the pyro isn't much of a threat to anyone but spies really or as a "scrapper".

Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I was killed by a pyro not using the airblast except by "scrappers": Pyros rushing into a fight, just barreling through w+m1ing to pick up heavily damaged enemies... And those pyros usually died right away.If you're going to pick up scraps you might as well use a Soldier or Demo for the AoE, range and higher damage or a Scout for evasion.

EDIT: At this point I won't be replying much to this thread, so if you want to continue, Caliostro, either add me on steam or pm me.

That's cool. Same goes for me

 

[Numerous]

TIME FOR ME TO TEAR DOWN YOUR ARGUMENT PIECE BY PIECE!

Think of it as a multiplayer game really.




Except you can't outdps him unless he's sleeping, or looking at yesteryear, at which point any other class can kill him just as fast if not faster, with the exception possesses no advantageous characteristic to sneak around.

A single rocket/grenade will almost/definitely halve your health and put you way outside of flame range. The second will kill you before you have time to finish them off with the shotgun/flare.

Can you kill them if they're "looking the other way"? Why yeah, easily... Much like any other class.



At which point you accomplished nothing as there are a million and a half ways of stopping afterburn currently.



Except since you don't have airblast at that point you're pretty much at the soldier's or demo's mercy. A rocket/sticky/grenade will get you if you run due to AoE. Woopsy.

But ok, hit and run? So it's more of a hit and run class? Didn't we just ascertained the scout is way better at that? Nevermind, let's move along.



Every other class has a shotgun and most classes have either a superior weapon for that range (think Sniper, rockets, stickies, etc) or more health to compensate for it (think Heavy).

The flare gun is good, but it's a suppression weapon as I mentioned before. Without airblast it's very unreliable for the same reason any other non-AoE projectile weapon is.



I do favor aggressive styles, but I know how to play passive too. Here's the catch: Soldiers/Demos have AoE to flush me out, Scouts have the speed and weapons to make better use of cover than I do, and heavies generally play "peekaboo" style a lot more effectively if you disregard airblast.




You're still assuming you're going to get them from behind when you have no good reason to.

Still, yes, if you get them from behind you can kill them, just as any other class really...

That said, Heavy will easily outdamage and outlive you otherwise. Without anything to push them away, they can simply either jump up to your face with the minigun and cut you to pieces, or take out the shotgun and kill you since they can actually tank you.

Besides, they too have the option to run away, and in that case, you're a bad place if you try to go after him.



...I thought you "studied" the pyro...

Airblast has longer range than the flame, and causes the target to be shot up in the air, which you can then use to land a flare (or several shotgun rounds) on target, which they can't avoid since it takes them a second to get the second jump anyways (assuming they're good scouts that remember they can double jump AND assuming they hadn't double jumped already).

Even without walls the airblast isa godsend, it DOES give you a small level of control over any class. A small but very necessary level of control.



I think you're overestimating the damage fire does and underestimating the blutsauger...

Here's some objective data:

Flamethrower: # Damage up to ~210 units: 6 to 8 damage per particle (135-180/sec)
# Damage at ~360 units: 4 to 5 per particle (90-112.5/sec)

Blutsauger:
# Point Blank: 10-15 (100-150/sec)
# Medium Range: 5-10 (50-100/sec)
# Long Range: 5-6 (50-60/sec)
Health gain: 3 (30/sec) [fires 10 needles per second so that's 30 hp a second if you don't miss]


As far as damage goes, the flamethrower is only winning by 30 damage, which is exactly what the blutsauger gives the medic per second if he's hitting you. If the medic stays just off the "very close range" of the flamethrower, or dances around you to cause less particles to hit him, he will he able to tank you. Again, he's also faster than you.





Maybe you're not as good as you think you are? Just putting it out there.

YouTube- Reflection rampage - TF2 frag movie

It's definitely possible. [I'd recommend skipping to around 1:50] I've done it myself too. Sure sentry rockets aren't my favorite pick, simply because you need to take a few shots to trigger them, but they're very much an option. Specially since you can trigger them "on demand" so to speak, so you know exactly when they're coming. Specially when you're circle strafing a sentry, airblasting the rockets can be the difference.



Didn't you just say:



So is this a "jack of all trades, master of none" situation?



And all I'm saying is

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO RELY 100% ON IT, BUT IF YOU'RE TRYING TO STATE IT'S NOT CURRENTLY A CRUCIAL PART OF THE CLASS YOU'RE OBJECTIVELY PROVEN WRONG

That's all. The game changed a lot since it was first released, at this point, without airblast the pyro isn't much of a threat to anyone but spies really or as a "scrapper".

Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I was killed by a pyro not using the airblast except by "scrappers": Pyros rushing into a fight, just barreling through w+m1ing to pick up heavily damaged enemies... And those pyros usually died right away.If you're going to pick up scraps you might as well use a Soldier or Demo for the AoE, range and higher damage or a Scout for evasion.



That's cool. Same goes for me

I would like to point out that the difference between an insta-kill with the backburner and a general fry with the flamethrower is the enemy soldier turning around and rocketing you in the face before he dies. And when there's more than one enemy, it makes a difference.


And by the way...


We can all talk in really large capitals, but when they're used in excess it's just plain annoying. Seriously, just stop it. Any more than 2 or 3 sentences and you're overusing it, so just don't. Ok?

 

[lana]

Stop quoting large walls of text

 

[Mick-a-nator]

People don't seem to realise that no single class is incredible against all other classes. That wouldn't be fair! the whole point of different classes is to have pros and cons versus other classes. Sniper is a sucker for a spy or a sneaky scout or pyro, but doms heavies and soldiers etc. The same goes for pyro, don't expect him to be amazing in every eventuality against every class and think that a buff will help him/her.
Also I'm with 99% of ppl on tf2, airblast sentry rockets are funny but very difficult, for a number of reasons.

I think this debate should end quite frankly...

 

[Fraz]

I'm not the best pyro, I wouldn't even say I'm good. I'm mediocre, average at best. I know that however, airblast is something that I don't use as a weapon, I generally can't kill too much with it, but being able to reflect rockets and projectiles to stop hitting me is crucial. I also know that I use my flames to kill people alot more than anything. I can never "rely" on my airblast, because it's a secondary fire, so I use it as such.

You also can't argue the airblast against blutsauger etc. why? If you are looking at the flamethrower without airblast, then look at the original needle gun. Updates have been made to balance the game more, and add new features. The Flamethrower now is versatile, which it should be. The backburner is fine as is imo, yeah it's not as good as the original flamethrower in most people's opinions, but the needlegun sucks compared to the blutsauger, the bonesaw sucks compared to the ubersaw. Complaing about the backburner when every other unlock is a sidegrade, and is used 50 - 50 between people.

Less QQ. More Pew Pew.

 

[Numerous]

I'm not the best pyro, I wouldn't even say I'm good. I'm mediocre, average at best. I know that however, airblast is something that I don't use as a weapon, I generally can't kill too much with it, but being able to reflect rockets and projectiles to stop hitting me is crucial. I also know that I use my flames to kill people alot more than anything. I can never "rely" on my airblast, because it's a secondary fire, so I use it as such.

You also can't argue the airblast against blutsauger etc. why? If you are looking at the flamethrower without airblast, then look at the original needle gun. Updates have been made to balance the game more, and add new features. The Flamethrower now is versatile, which it should be. The backburner is fine as is imo, yeah it's not as good as the original flamethrower in most people's opinions, but the needlegun sucks compared to the blutsauger, the bonesaw sucks compared to the ubersaw. Complaing about the backburner when every other unlock is a sidegrade, and is used 50 - 50 between people.

Less QQ. More Pew Pew.

Oh come on, even I don't steal crappy one-liners from the steam forums.

And by the way, the needle gun is not useless as it now gives a much higher passive health regeneration rate, for the medic. Look it up on tf2wiki. And as eevryone knows, the tf2 beta2 is testing out a -20 hp per hit on the ubersaw.
Sounds like they're more balanced now.

 

[Terr]

The problem with the BB is that--like the perennial problem of the Spy--its effectiveness plummets far too quickly against decent enemy players who know the map and have good situational awareness.

The airblast, on the other hand, can remain useful even if its only effect is to make that soldier switch to his shotgun.

The backburner is currently underused compared to the normal flamethrower, and it needs a change of some sort of positive change which addresses that issue.

P.S.: Like Samuel Vimes on the subject of Dwarves and Trolls... Numerous, you're not allowed to say bad things about the Steam forums in the first week you joined. Leave that to the people who've lived it.

 

[Numerous]

The problem with the BB is that--like the perennial problem of the Spy--its effectiveness plummets far too quickly against decent enemy players who know the map and have good situational awareness.

The airblast, on the other hand, can remain useful even if its only effect is to make that soldier switch to his shotgun.

The backburner is currently underused compared to the normal flamethrower, and it needs a change of some sort of positive change which addresses that issue.

P.S.: Like Samuel Vimes on the subject of Dwarves and Trolls... Numerous, you're not allowed to say bad things about the Steam forums in the first week you joined. Leave that to the people who've lived it.

Haven't you worked out why my steam forums name is "Numer0us", not "Numerous"? It's because I already used "Numerous", but some dumbass admin thought that sarcasm = I really do think that valve should make hacks supported by steam, and officially endorsed like CS is.
So excuse me My 1000+ posts on steam forums must mean nothing.

 

[Terr]

So excuse me My 1000+ posts on steam forums must mean nothing.

More than a thousand? So you have not two but three or four past accounts?

 

[Numerous]

More than a thousand? So you have not two but three or four past accounts?

 

[grazr]

I don't think this really needs to continue. It's totally de-railed the thread.

 

[Numerous]

I don't think this really needs to continue. It's totally de-railed the thread.

Yea, maybe, but it's better than the threads on steam. I challenge everyone to try to show some sense to people on the class subforums on the steam TF2 forums. 99% guaranteed to drive you crazy.

 

[Caliostro]

I would like to point out that the difference between an insta-kill with the backburner and a general fry with the flamethrower is the enemy soldier turning around and rocketing you in the face before he dies. And when there's more than one enemy, it makes a difference.

The issue is never when you get people from behind. If you're getting people from behind they should be dead, period, as with any class. If they're living you're doing it wrong.

The issue is that the Pyro has no reliable method or advantage to sneak around, so you can rely on backwhacks, like the spy has his cloak and disguise and the scout has his small size and speed.

And by the way...


We can all talk in really large capitals, but when they're used in excess it's just plain annoying. Seriously, just stop it. Any more than 2 or 3 sentences and you're overusing it, so just don't. Ok?

I realize you're not very smart, but I'm going to pretend you are and point out I was just copying TMP's "answer layout". Ironically, either you didn't understand something that basic or you're incurring in the same issue you're raging about. LOL IRONY!