A possible backburner fix (dun dun DUUUN)

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Numerous, Jan 8, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Numerous

    Numerous L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    150
    Positive Ratings:
    72
    Unfortunately, I posted in a forum that has spambots that are smarter than most of the members, and less annoying too.
    That said, if you want I'll copy/paste, but you could just read it where I posted it in the first place.
    What's not to like about it?


    By the way, (personal opinion coming up, don't ban me) steam forum members are dumber than a bunch of retarded oxygen-starved kindergarten kids who got hooked on cocaine and overdosed several hundred times. I regret ever re-registering after an equally-stupid admin failed to recognise sarcasm (in response to a "allow people to log in twice because using multiple accounts at once is annoying" thread) and thought I was really suggesting making hacking supported by steam.

    Anyways, that said, feel free to post constructive criticism and suggestions, but if you give me any suggestions to add "pyro rocket jumping" and to the backburner I will personally give you AIDS, and if you already have it, Leukemia, Cancer, or a custom-made biological weapon. If you have all of those, I'll give you 2 sniper bullets, at high velocity.







    It just occurred to me that arguing on the steam forums for a few hours makes you want to torture several tiny helpless mammals.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2010
  2. Bermuda Cake

    Bermuda Cake L9: Fashionable Member

    Messages:
    679
    Positive Ratings:
    192
    :O you have become one
     
  3. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,557
    1. Make the backburner do ~20% (? - to be adjusted later) less damage.
    2. Make the backburner have ~20% (? - also to be adjusted later) less reach

    Are nerfs to a weapon you want to buff...

    3. Adjust the angle from which you can crit (from behind, obviously) to maybe ~30 degrees (to be adjusted, this might be overpowered)
    4. Add another ~15 degrees on each side, anything hitting THIS 30 degree angle (remember, 15 + 15 = 30) will MINICRIT.

    BB effects 90* from behind, not 30. So your buff is actually a nerf.

    The BB isn't necasserily under powered, it's a completely different tool used for different tactics. The problem with the BB is that flanking tactics usually end in a kill anyway, regardless of crits, and the airblast is invaluble for retreating or attacking projectile based opponents.

    The general issue with the pyro is that he's normally suicidal, IE he gets killed before killing his enemy with after burn.

    Either way the BB is redundant in comparison to the standard flamethrower because the standard flame thrower is more tactically dextrous. You can perform BB manouvers with the standard flamethrower relying on afterburn rather than crits. There's absolutely no reason to use the BB since it's +50HP nerf and airblast ability for the standard flamethrower upgrade..
     
  4. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Messages:
    817
    Positive Ratings:
    1,154
    make the dragon mouth eat people


    problem solved
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 11
  5. Caliostro

    Caliostro L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    261
    Positive Ratings:
    110
    Off course not! it's just completely useless... Oh wait.

    @OP: Well, I'll give you credit, you approached something partially resembling a good idea. For a second. Then I guess it frightened you and you butchered it entirely.

    First thing I need to dispel is that the flaregun is somehow underpowered.

    Yes, the flaregun is a slow projectile weapon and as such suffers from "unreliability to hit pretty much anything outside of a short distance" syndrome, and the first reflex is to ditch it in favor of the hitscan shotgun, much like you'd ditch the useless Huntsman in favor of the Sniper Rifle. The difference is that the Flaregun offers enough pros to compensate for the cons, while the Huntsman is an entirely inferior weapon to the Rifle in every way but "ease to use".

    The Flaregun, however, has strong synergies with both the Airblast (since it makes enemies easy targets for the flare) and the Pyro role entirely by serving as a suppressive weapon.

    See, while the flare might not hit far away targets, it comes with a significant damage threat (instant damage + fire) that forces light targets to avoid it, consequently clearing the way for the Pyro to move up, or take a significant hit. A single flare hit will do 30 damage instantly and definitely force them to retreat (less they wish to escalate that to 90 damage). The flaregun can also reload while you're not using it, which allows the pyro to never be caught up in reload animations.

    Yes, the shotgun can also be used as a suppressive tool, but it's less effective at that. Ironically the fact that it instantly hits it's target means the target won't have much of a need to hide, because he was already hit. It also comes with a slow refire time, meaning you can easily be shot, completely unhindered, during the refire cycles. It also has a reload animation, and even though you can fire 5 shots fast, you'll need to reload it slowly after.
    At long range it's also not a significant threat to justify avoiding. 3-10 damage per hit? Fuck it. Most classes that would be a problem at that range can afford to trade blows with that.

    And cutting a really long conversation short, in the end, the shotgun - flare thing is a sidegrade. They're both more useful than the other in different situations. Personally prefer the flare as it fits my style more, but I won't shy away from using the shotgun as it's perfectly adequate as well.

    As for your idea... 90 seconds? 45 seconds? Are you high? Pick up a clock. I'll wait.

    Got it? Good. Now time 45 seconds while watching a TF2 match.

    Yeah, it is a lot. Now imagine having a whole pathway blocked with that during a game. Yeah. GG.

    However, I did mention that there was a start of a good idea in there. The good idea, that accidentally was born from that mess, is that the Backburner could have a jarate-like "self-buff" feature. Instead of having the airblast that the Flamethrower does, the Backburner could launch a small fluid "bomb", smaller and with less range than the jarate, that would cause any FIRE (and fire only, otherwise it's overlapping with jarate) to always mini-crit (afterburn and direct damage - only direct hit on pyros since they can't burn) on the target while it's soaked.

    The hit could look exactly like jarate too, except, again, smaller, and people coated in it would instantly burn into flames when hit by fire or a flaregun. The projectile could cost 25-50 ammo to fire, to avoid spam, and last around... 5-10 seconds, at most, making it a "pre-emptive" and tactical thing instead of a "launch into a crowd and hope you'll run into them".

    While I probably still wouldn't trade the flamethrower for it (for it's defensive capacity) this, together with it's "backcrits" quality, would make the Backburner a viable sidegrade IMO. A more aggressive version of the Flamethrower.
     
  6. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

    Messages:
    948
    Positive Ratings:
    551
    Ok so who in the hell wants to buff the flare gun? It's perfectly fine as is.

    Ok, WHO WANTS TO BUFF THE DAMN BACKBURNER? Do that and suddenly V.Striker becomes the best damn TF2 player on earth.

    At this point, I would say the pyro's unlocks are the most balanced. Most pyros don't know jack shit about theories behind pyroing, which makes backburner usage easier. The flamethrower does do sick damage close range anyways. Sure, you lose the airblast. If you rely on the airblast to do your job as pyro though, you're doing a bad job to start off with. You should be able to do your main job, getting close to your enemy, without the aid of the airblast.

    Its posts like these that make me want to finish that damn comprehensive guide I'm working on just to teach you guys to shut up about "Backburner needs a buff" "Flare gun is UP" and other stuff. You wanna know who I think is the best pyro I've seen, aside from perhaps myself? His name is V.Striker. He uses Backburner. He has 930 hours of pyro, and he decimates with it. Decimates. If you know me I'm not kidding when I say that. It's his subliminal theory in which makes him devastating. Something not many pyros actually think about.

    Eh, I just get excitable over these things. Sorry if I'm yelling it seems, but I really hate that people remark things like that.


    Anyways, my name is TMP, I have about 400 hours as pyro, I primarily run flamethrower-flare-axtinguisher, but I am known to use backburner and/or shotgun at times. I have pretty much gotten the Universal Reflection Timing down, and my flares are fairly adept at hitting targets at any range. I do what probably no one in this damn forum has done: Studied the pyro. I know things that others do not. I invented the damn pyro grenade jump as a fast propel method. I have around 1000 hours of TF2 at least, probably over 1200 at this point. I know what I talk about when I'm talking about pyro. If I don't know, I'll get a guy who does to speak.

    tl,dr; Don't buff backburner or flaregun, if you know jack shit about pyro theory and train with them they're deadly. If you need airblast to get to an enemy you're a dolt.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 5
  7. Mick-a-nator

    aa Mick-a-nator

    Messages:
    640
    Positive Ratings:
    314
    Here here!! :p

    Most/all of the things you suggested there are frankly stupid. The only one kind of liked was the 20% less reach, but that wouldn't stop idiots using in ppls faces, just make them go "dUrh, WHy doNT teH BB wOrK!?"

    just leave it, and if someone says anything pyro is UP, get someone who can PLAY pyro.
    (Also I would like to say that I may not be the best pyro in the world, nor is it my most played class, but if I happen to be in "the zone" and on the right map, I can wreak havoc on an un-organised team with any combo of weapons)
     
  8. ANova

    ANova L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    415
    Positive Ratings:
    124

    Yes
     
  9. gamemaster1996

    gamemaster1996 L13: Stunning Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Positive Ratings:
    131
    Yeh isn't it just that everyone wants secondary fire as a melee atack. Like i know this may ruin the axtinguiisher but the reasoning behind it is if you want to attack someone quickly right now but weakely use backburner and axtinguisher for waiting one second but doing more damadge.

    Simples >(o)<
     
  10. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

    Messages:
    1,555
    Positive Ratings:
    2,158
    I stick to the regular flamethrower, shotgun, and axetinguisher. There have been a few times where I thought to myself, "Man, I wish I had the backburner equipped right now" but most of the time the airblast is far, far more useful.

    It's not the backburner is bad, it's just that the airblast is so amazingly useful for everything from rockets to CP denial to ubers.

    If the goal is to keep both weapon choices equal, you either have to nerf the regular flamethrower (extra ammo costs, less effect, etc) or buff the backburner (extra hp while using it, greater damage, etc). But I'm not sure it's really possible to get a true equilibrium with weapon choices.

    So, coming from a POV that it probably doesn't need any tweaking:

    * Change airblast to use 40 ammo instead of 25
    * Change backburner to +8% damage, -10% range

    That'd make it a tougher choice, but I'd still go with airblast.

    Also, dragon mouth eating people == winnar.

    Kep
     
  11. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,557
    Redundant statement is redundant?

    Anyway: Flare got a buff anyway. Minicrits. 2 flares would normally kill any 125hp class anyway.
     
  12. Caliostro

    Caliostro L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    261
    Positive Ratings:
    110
    Was a joke on the seemingly paradoxical nature of your statement ("it's not underpowered... it's just redundant!"). Don't read too much into it.


    If you're consistently getting up to enemies without airblast, they're dolts.
     
  13. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Messages:
    817
    Positive Ratings:
    1,154
    secondary fire for the backburner should eat up projectiles and give you health
     
  14. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

    Messages:
    948
    Positive Ratings:
    551
    That, or you're moving correctly.

    I was going to say I'm sorry for the harshness, as I was in a HORRIBLE mood this morning, but I do stick by everything I said. Even that. Pyros existed before they had airblast, sure it wasn't numerous, but they got the buff to the normal flame and then you could actually do stuff. If you run pyro like you used to have to, then you can get near people.
     
  15. Numerous

    Numerous L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    150
    Positive Ratings:
    72
    Except the huntsman is better at close range. I haven't seen anyone who can consistently headshot people with the rifle at close range. And definitely not with the rifle fully charged.
    Yea, I know this but the flare gun is much more situational in my experience, and the shotgun is decent at midrange, as well as an all-round weapon. It's not like I'm doubling the damage, it's just something which would help it out a bit, and encourage more people to use a flare gun.


    You obviously missed the part where I said "unlit napalm/whatever can be removed by shooting it. As for the timer, stickybombs much? Really, stickybombs work just fine like that, they aren't "completely overpowered" at area denial.

    So basically it's jarate for pyros? That just makes jarate less useful. If you're flanking someone, you don't want to alert them by jarateing them first.

    I think my idea works just fine.



    On an unrelated note, I think steam forums are like the tf2maps forums would be if everyone drunk a bottle of vodka.
     
  16. Retroid

    Retroid L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    206
    Positive Ratings:
    22
    Hang on I think I'm having a House moment... But what if right click was mini-charge, much faster then the Demomans but only for the distance of the flamethrower's reach and if hit from behind the pyro could latch on to a player, slow them right down (like the pyro's being dragged, perhaps with the pyro having some input into the direction) whilst delivering base burn damage. He lets go if damaged or if he chooses to (if that's OP or boring perhaps 20ish seconds).

    Just a fun little idea. :D
     
  17. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    At least most things in the TF2 universe make sense. If you were a new player and you saw a flammable canister or a pile of goo on the ground, would you really want to shoot it?
     
  18. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

    Messages:
    948
    Positive Ratings:
    551
    I actually find it working the other way. The flare gun is accurate, and a fast projectile, and will hit your enemy if you can aim it correctly. It has as much range as you want, can extend fire, is good for hit and run with blind hits, and is just overall a very well rounded weapon. I find the shotgun more situational as it required you to be in mid range and thus you lose out of prime fire time.

    But hey, that's me. Any buffs to the flare gun (which I didn't notice on your thing by the way, could you point it out?) would probably make people like me way too.... uh, what's a good word? Overpowered?
     
  19. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,557
    Perhaps a 50% longer afterburn on a successful BB crit. Make it easier on flanking and dispersing an over healed team/heavies.

    Or the amount of standard damage to a player increases a proportionately more/longer afterburn effect. But that seems less fair since it gives the BB an overall better power from all directions. Which isn't its point, or at least it sounds like a completely different weapon.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2010
  20. Numerous

    Numerous L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    150
    Positive Ratings:
    72
    Well excuse me, I didn't realise TF2 had to be realistic. The fact is, most new players wouldn't realise that the backburner would do extra damage when attacking from behind anyways. All it would take would be adding "shoot napalm to make it disappear" to the hints on the loading page.

    By the way, what the backburner needs is a buff that makes it more useful tactically, and less useful when attacking head on. So making it do extra damage from the front is stupid, because you're not supposed to be attacking from the front. You shouldn't need a boost in speed because you're supposed to be ambushing and flanking people, from behind.

    Besides, an alt fire for the backburner would make the class more interesting and unique.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.