TF2Maps and Potato’s MvM Servers Present: Mappers vs Machines
- Thread starter LeSwordfish
- Start date
Hydrogen
MvM Maniac
- Apr 5, 2017
- 84
- 181
This is exactly why we allow a max of 3 people per entry (raised from 2 from the 2012 contest). If you think the pop files are a burden, then find someone to work with! MvM is a co-op mode so collaboration for a project for a cooperative game mode makes the most sense (to me anyway).
You have to remember that you don't have MvM if you don't have the pop files. From the point of view of the players, the waves "effectively" are about half the map. If you have bad waves, then players won't want to replay your map even if the map itself is awesome. (Conversely, some people may replay an otherwise not-so-great map if the waves are challenging and fun to play.) I'm pretty certain there are many people that would love to design waves for mappers. Just ask around and you will likely find someone to do that work for you. (I can tell you right now that making a map is much much harder than writing pop files...)
We even allow you to create your own difficulty for the second pop file so that you can have some fun in the wave designing process.
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As Freyja has mentioned earlier: You can use the map you submit here in her detailing contest. Just make sure that you modify your map so that it follows the rules listed on her contest (4096 x 4096 size, file name convention, etc).
I realize that MvM has a few "traps" in it when it comes to designing maps and waves (some of which have been explained in the links on the FAQ) so I'll be making a thread on the tutorial forum eventually about some common mistakes, how to recognize them, how to fix them, etc.
Ive been thinking about Making "symetrical" mvm map, ill give it a go and see if i can make something out of it
Hydrogen
MvM Maniac
- Apr 5, 2017
- 84
- 181
After having a discussion with LeSwordfish, getting feedback from other people and reading the posts here one more time, it seems like people are enthusiastic about participating in the contest but perhaps are a little scared or uneasy because they are not familiar with the MvM game mode.
To give people an opportunity to understand how MvM works, see how MvM maps & waves are designed, and ask me questions about the contest, I decided to schedule a marathon of gamedays tomorrow (April 8). We will be playing a variety of MvM maps, both Valve and community-made, on various difficulties (likely normal/intermediate mode). You are free to ask us questions about the map and wave design as we play through them, and we'll do our best to answer them. You'll benefit the most if you bring the mapper's eye to these games and observe how the map is built, how the waves are designed, and how players maneuver around the map to deal with the robot horde (chokepoints, flanks, ammo/health placement, building placement, places for cover, etc).
If you're interested in joining us tomorrow, be sure to join the server steam group! (The link is on the OP.) Tomorrow (at about 11 AM EDT), join the server group chat and wait for one of us to start a gameday. We will be running it pretty much all day until there's no longer any interest to play maps and missions. You don't need prior MvM experience of any sort to join us; we'll collaboratively decide on a map and difficulty in the group chat before starting a game. (Even sitting in team spectator and watching the game should be helpful.) Hopefully this should give people some idea on how to work with the game mode, clear up doubts and confusions, and instill confidence.
I'll also start frequenting the TF2Maps steam group chat so that people can ask questions there as well. If you have questions, send them my way!
Don't worry too much about lack of experience with MvM. You don't need to know the intricate details of "the MvM meta" to make a fun series of waves. I had almost no experience at all when I made mvm_isolation, and that did pretty well in the old MvM contest.
Just dive in, have fun with it; it's actually not as complex as standard mapping. After all, nobody on BLU is going to complain if your map is unfairly balanced against them so you only have to make six people on RED happy.
Just dive in, have fun with it; it's actually not as complex as standard mapping. After all, nobody on BLU is going to complain if your map is unfairly balanced against them so you only have to make six people on RED happy.
Hydrogen
MvM Maniac
- Apr 5, 2017
- 84
- 181
Yes, you can use the class icons pack. That's covered under the rules under "publicly available assets".
If you use someone's class icon and it's not publicly available, make sure to get their permission to use it. (Note: Having it downloaded to your game from an MvM server doesn't mean it's publicly available.)
Skyliner
L1: Registered
- Jan 26, 2016
- 5
- 2
Hmmmm.... Intersting...
I guess im in.
(Even though i will need to learn how to make a MvM map first...)
I guess im in.
(Even though i will need to learn how to make a MvM map first...)
Hydrogen
MvM Maniac
- Apr 5, 2017
- 84
- 181
So the MvM demonstration gameday marathon today went pretty well (we'll still be doing it again later this evening for US/AU mappers - join us then if you missed the morning one!), so I think we might make this MvM marathon a normal reoccurring event every weekend. If you missed out in joining us today, make sure to catch us next time! Once we get MvM maps from contest participants to test, we can start rotating through those too. When we get to that point, I'll discuss some policies related to map testing.
Someone asked this in the group chat and I should mention this here: We do have feedback tracking and demo recordings on our MvM servers, similar to (but not identical to) what you have here on TF2Maps.net servers. We found a few bugs that need fixing with the demo recordings, but once that's done you can get demo files and feedback data for all MvM games we play.
...I think that's all I want to say for now. I'll work on putting up some MvM tips in the tutorials forum later this weekend. I also will be making some bot templates from the missions I worked on in the past available for people to use (e.g. vaccinator medics, beggar's bazooka soldiers).
Just to further emphasize this comment with an example: Some people in this thread who expressed uncertainty in MvM managed to complete expert mode decoy in half an hour today with little prior MvM experience (you guys know who you are). Let me restate this one more time: You don't need to be a pro at MvM to do well in this contest!
Someone asked this in the group chat and I should mention this here: We do have feedback tracking and demo recordings on our MvM servers, similar to (but not identical to) what you have here on TF2Maps.net servers. We found a few bugs that need fixing with the demo recordings, but once that's done you can get demo files and feedback data for all MvM games we play.
...I think that's all I want to say for now. I'll work on putting up some MvM tips in the tutorials forum later this weekend. I also will be making some bot templates from the missions I worked on in the past available for people to use (e.g. vaccinator medics, beggar's bazooka soldiers).
Don't worry too much about lack of experience with MvM. You don't need to know the intricate details of "the MvM meta" to make a fun series of waves. I had almost no experience at all when I made mvm_isolation, and that did pretty well in the old MvM contest.
Just dive in, have fun with it; it's actually not as complex as standard mapping. After all, nobody on BLU is going to complain if your map is unfairly balanced against them so you only have to make six people on RED happy.
Just to further emphasize this comment with an example: Some people in this thread who expressed uncertainty in MvM managed to complete expert mode decoy in half an hour today with little prior MvM experience (you guys know who you are). Let me restate this one more time: You don't need to be a pro at MvM to do well in this contest!
ммα | ∂αиỉєℓ
L2: Junior Member
- Feb 10, 2015
- 65
- 31
I was thinking of making an MvM map, what a coinky dink. I'd love to collab with somebody if any one is up for it.
Hydrogen
MvM Maniac
- Apr 5, 2017
- 84
- 181
One advice I want to put out here: For testing your map in the early alpha stage, feel free to use any Valve pop file of your choice as a placeholder. Bigrock, Coaltown and Decoy are good choices. I believe it's important to get an idea on how players and bots maneuver around your map early on, so don't feel like you need to write up your own pop file to get your map tested for the first time.
Even when you send us your map for testing, you can send us a Valve pop file renamed as your map (e.g. mvm_coaltown.pop --> mvm_yourmap.pop) as a placeholder. Once you think your map layout and entity work is more-or-less final (typically before the detailing stage), then you can start thinking about how to design your own waves.
Whatever you give us for testing won't disqualify or otherwise hurt you for this contest - testing doesn't count for anything. The final submission by the deadline is what counts, so feel free to send us whatever you want for testing. Try to tackle one problem at a time when dealing with MvM maps - it will help keep you sane. There are a lot of technical hurdles, I know, but attack each one at a time.
Even when you send us your map for testing, you can send us a Valve pop file renamed as your map (e.g. mvm_coaltown.pop --> mvm_yourmap.pop) as a placeholder. Once you think your map layout and entity work is more-or-less final (typically before the detailing stage), then you can start thinking about how to design your own waves.
Whatever you give us for testing won't disqualify or otherwise hurt you for this contest - testing doesn't count for anything. The final submission by the deadline is what counts, so feel free to send us whatever you want for testing. Try to tackle one problem at a time when dealing with MvM maps - it will help keep you sane. There are a lot of technical hurdles, I know, but attack each one at a time.
