[WIP]Arena_Mudfarm

[Zwiffle]

Hi there. This is a map I've been working on that started out as CtF but ended up being more of an Arena map. It's a fairly small map centered around a pool of muddy water in the middle that both BLU and RED are trying to take control of.

Because the map takes place very early in the morning, the map is a bit darker than most other TF2 maps. There is also a slightly thicker fog than most other maps. The reduced visibility should add some tension in the map, but it's not so bad that you can't see someone on the other side of the mud.

I'm primarily concerned with game play balancing at this point, so I would prefer feedback and opinion related to that. I'm mostly concerned with Snipers/Spies being too powerful, with the open areas and dark corners. Pyros should be viable on the map, just not in the middle. I think everything else should be okay as well, but I haven't tested it with a large group yet. Any layout ideas are welcome.

The looks are the last thing I'm going to do, but of course feedback on the looks is welcome as well, particularly the initial lighting and fog.

http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=672

By zwiffleownsu at 2008-09-28

By zwiffleownsu at 2008-09-28

By zwiffleownsu at 2008-09-28

By zwiffleownsu at 2008-09-28

By zwiffleownsu at 2008-09-28

 

[FreeLance_FoX]

Hey I really like the look of this map so far! I really wish you'd take your theme and expand on it, more mappers need to branch out on variations of the classic TF2 theme like you did. I just can't tell you enough how good it looks.

I'll DL it and test it out later.

 

[xxack]

I like the idea of a night map, but i've never actually played on one.

Theoretically its a good idea to me, but in practice it might make playing a little difficult.

EDIT:
Sorry for no feedback about the balance, I don't want to try to talk about something I know nothing about.

But if its dark is sniping harder?

 

[laghlagh]

The fog-mood here is awesome, I've never played anything like that.

 

[Vander]

I love the visual style. It will hard to incorporate into TF2, but I fraggin love it anyway. Looks awesome! Can you give some of us noobs an idea of how you achieve the ambiance?

 

[Uriak]

Nice mood. You should not be too worried about snipers because the arena mode is not very friendly to them.

 

[grazr]

I love the visual style. It will hard to incorporate into TF2, but I fraggin love it anyway. Looks awesome! Can you give some of us noobs an idea of how you achieve the ambiance?

Low light ambience and very short fog fade distance.. coupled with point_lightspots on every lamp as well it seems.

This is getting tiresome to mention to every single map someone makes public that has a night ambience. TF2 was designed with the idea of lighting and silhuette as key parts of gameplay. With a lack of light, players are unable to disdinguish team and class (atleast instantly). TF2's style and engine allows players to instantly tell both what class, team and weapon a character has. Darkness negates all the effert and protocals Valve have in place that is the very concept of TF2. There is a reason Valve have not released a dark/night TF2 map and that is it.

The usual said and done, ambience aside, the map looks very nice, if not a little bland in colour and building design. I see a lot of big plain walls, but there are far worse offences. (like the night theme) which i can see giving the spy an enormous advantage.

 

[Uriak]

One could play of the contrast between a main well lit zone, with instant appreciation of danger and clear silhouettes and a more gloomy area, engulfed in shadows and fog. In the same way that normal and underwater paths exist on some maps.

I agree a full level in poor light conditions wouldn't fit the TF² axioms well, but both interesting gameplay and ambience may come from well though darkness

 

[Nineaxis]

I see HL2 textures!

I have to agree with grazr, the map isn't really "fit" for TF2.

 

[joshman]

Wow, the ambiance and lighting really reminds me of Ravenholm

 

[Vander]

I know it doesn't fit the TF2 theme. I just think it looks cool.

 

[Zwiffle]

Hey thanks for all the feedback. I appreciate it.

Some clarification: It's not meant to be a night theme, it's early morning. And yes, I know that TF2 is meant to be set during the day time with a ton of light, I chose to set the lighting a little darker, and I chose to have fog in there. Why? Because I wanted something different, and to sort of push the rules that Valve set up. I don't think that people should be afraid to try something Valve hasn't done. Just because they didn't do it doesn't mean it can't be done and still feel like TF2. That's just narrow minded. (Same goes for HL2 textures, I think they can be used if done well.)

I constantly tweak the lighting to try to get it soft but not so dark that you can't see anybody. Pretty much all the feedback I've gotten so far has said that it's pretty dark. I have run around with someone else in-game and I was able to identify them from a distance (class, team color) fairly easily, however, but I understand not all brightness configurations are the same. So I will, of course, be tweaking the ambiance so it's brighter, but should still convey the early morning feeling.

I will also probably scale down the fog a bit since it doesn't match up well with the skybox at longer distances, and it seems a bit too thick in-game right now.

The final detailing will come after I feel pretty comfortable with the gameplay.

Speaking of gameplay: There's not a clear pic of the cap point, but it's in the middle of the main pool at the center of the arena. The water is pretty deep so anyone can dunk themselves off against a Pyro, or just hide down there. All other water is shallow and will not let the player dunk themselves off.

The spawn room will probably be moved up a little bit too. This way the main fight in the center gets started a lot more quickly and the side battles are pushed back a little bit. If anyone's run around and has suggestions for item placement, whether I should add health packs at all or just leave them out, etc, shout them at me.

Also, I'll be adding a couple different catwalks and changing up some of the layout, which I hope will make the higher ground a bit more important as well.

Thanks again for all the great feedback!

 

[grazr]

I really don't mean to push you or the subject (or sound condescending). But in response to what you've said i kind of feel the need to elaborate my point so what i mean is more clear (so it's rather less of a simple objection of the lighting conditions).

I wanted something different, and to sort of push the rules that Valve set up. I don't think that people should be afraid to try something Valve hasn't done. Just because they didn't do it doesn't mean it can't be done and still feel like TF2. That's just narrow minded.

I'm well aware that you knowlingly and willingly made these decisions and for the reasons mentioned above; but whilst you may think you're being different, (atleast from Valve's perspective, that would be so). You're not. Why? Because..

The vast majority of beginner mappers are actually doing exactly the same as you. A good portion of the maps i see around here (atleast from the less experienced level designers) are "i want to be different, so i made a night map" (early morning in your case..). I'm not trying to change your mind, though in my opinion if you did it would only improve your maps playability. I'm only warning you that this is A) a broken concept and B) may hinderance its possible success and popularity on more serious servers.

Just because they didn't do it doesn't mean it can't be done

Whilst under any normal circumstances i would fully support this course of action and your enthusiasm for a challenge; in this case.. it's unjustified. There is a reason it hasn't been done, if it could be done (and done well) Valve would have; since this would be the first step in the development process to differentiant some of the limited stock maps; but the game wasn't designed with this in mind. Thus, no low ambient maps have been made by Valve, or chosen from the community by valve, to become stock maps.

I fully respect your freedom of choice and will, this is after all a free developer kit with limited restraints. But i wouldn't feel right without atleast attempting to guide you along a more.. appropriate/suitable path. At the end of the day, it is your choice and i can only advise/suggest/recommend you. I hope you arn't offended by my keene-ness in elaborating my point. I don't mean to bash you around, but sometimes a little strict education is in order. (honestly trying not to sound patronising, i've had to learn the same lessons).

That said, continue in which ever direction you intend to take. You're map seems well made and your TF2 style is strong. But i can't help but feel the fog is disguising some of the rather bland walls. You could do with some overlays perhaps, and more "loose" props against the walls. If you do ever decide that perhaps you want to illuminate your map further then make a more progressed dawn with a reddish/orange hue sunrise setting; that would be awesome.