Spillway

Remix

L69: Deviant Member
Feb 27, 2008
69
15
Last night seemed like a pretty successful playtesting session. The changes from a4 to a5 are a huge improvement to the map overall. My biggest complaints:

1: It seems like too much canyon. The 2/4 point seems more fit for a building layout, or for more buildings to be in the area. If you made the 2/4 point more of an enclosed area, it would seem more appropriate for 1/5 to be in more of an outdoor area again.

2: Scouts and snipers dominate the map. I led my team for 4 rounds by a margin of 15 points while playing scout. Not sure if this was just team balance, or the map itself. We didn't really have any amazing snipers in last nights playtesting, but I can definitely say that any decent sniper would be able to completely shut down any other class on this map.

3: Last point is still too stalematey. When people were talking about creating good areas for an engineer to build, don't listen to them. If you have played competitively before, you would know that engineers are extremely situational. I thought that the last point had plenty of good sentry positions, the engineers just never properly executed them.

4: I don't think that pub playtesting is what you need or what you want. I hope that we can setup a couple of pugs to playtest this thing. It would get you the feedback that you actually need, especially if you could get some talented players into the game.

Comments (good and bad) on the map that I heard last night from some of my buddies:

1: First impressions - Confusion, lost, too big, too open, stalemates on last point
2: My buddy that was playing demoman said the following:
- Map is too open for demoman play
- Stickies are only useful for spam, nowhere to set traps
- Middle point is perfect, DON'T CHANGE IT
- 2/4 and 1/5 points need major work. Consider either complete redesign or major overhaul
3: Another buddy who played scout with me said mostly the same things I already mentioned.
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
Thanks for the solid feedback man! I've definitely been trying to pursue some competitive testing, but unfortunately my friends have been a little bit stubborn about testing this and I do agree that it's high time I get some heavy feedback from the comp community. I dunno if I'd dare to bring it up on gotfrag yet, but hopefully I could instead get some testing from specific groups that know more what they're doing. >_0

- Awesome to hear that middle is well-liked! I'm loving the way it's turned out, and I expect it to undergo very few changes from now until detailing begins.

- The last point is... troublesome. I stepped rather far away from the normal model of a linear 5CP final point, and so I'm hoping that with a few key tweaks I can have this idea really work. The problem as I see is the lack of direct access by the offensive team tends to thwart their normal offensive tactics (AKA spamming the point from doorways until it's cleared, or bum-rushing). It will probably prove to be much more effective in the competitive arena though, with the use of ubers to break into that room becoming very important and also the use of the skylight as an offensive AND defensive route, which I rarely saw any use of yesterday.

- The 2nd/4th point... ugh. I can totally understand your feedback on it, and I very much agree. I love the dynamics of the very small area around the point, but I don't wonder if maybe the whole auxiliary area around the hole is just unnecessary. I really do love the hole, but it may not work out in practice because it just puts too much open space there. Your thoughts about perhaps making the 2nd point a building really intrigue me, and I came up with a preliminary idea that would perhaps cut down on the spam/openness of that whole arena by just making the area around the CP, from the ramp on the one side to the stairway-hut, all the way to the ground right in front of the hole. Potentially, that could remove the largest sight-lines in that area, make the area around the point play tighter to the CP itself (and improve the gameplay right around the point that I already like), and add more visual references for the players to use... so they don't keep getting lost in the "endless cliffs". :p

- The real problem out of all of this is the scale feedback I'm getting... because that will affect all the rest of this too. I don't exactly know how I'm going to fix these scale issues, if they really exist, unless I can either A) fill space with details or B) actually compress the map in some parts. I REALLY need someone with some knowledge of my map to go through and screenshot the worst of the sniper alleys for me so that I can think of creative fixes to the problems... as opposed to just dropping rocks in the path, which I'd rather avoid.

Thanks all!

<3 foxy
 

Remix

L69: Deviant Member
Feb 27, 2008
69
15
Well here are my answers for your problems:

- I like the last point, and I agree that it could turn out completely different in a pug than in a pub, everything does. To solve the problem of nobody utilizing the roof, I think (that for new pub players) you have to find a way to let people know they can go up there. It just seems like a building that would be noclipped, especially because of the flat roof style.

- This could be a pretty simple fix. I propose you just check out hydro and see how they fixed this problem:
Example SS #1 and Example SS #2.

Now if you look at those two screenshots, all Valve did was make the hole slightly smaller, put in one or two rocks along the outer edges of the hole, and then displace the rock surface itself to create a hill. If you do something similar, I think it could make the hole look better and make it less sniper friendly.

- This last part would just be easier for me to go in game with you and give you overall feedback on the scaling.
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
Got it remix! :3

So just to get it all down, I just had the 6v6 testing treatment from Mangy and I got a ton of valuable feedback there. I've got a ton of ideas in my head right now (from that), but here's the general things/known issues:

1: Clipping on middle CP is sketch. Turn off collisions on CP and fix clipping on all four hills.
2: Turn the stairs at middle either into solid stairs or block their rear side with something solid.
3: Downsize all unnecessary open space, it's making the map feel way out of proportion from normal TF2 and messing up my otherwise pretty good layout.
4: Change last to make the roof more viable, open the point up to the front somehow without allowing the offense inside.
5: Overhaul 2nd/4th to become much more sleek, emphasize the point and the hole in the ground mostly, cut as much extra space as possible.
6: Sniper sightlines are bad but not map-breaking, either way will be changed significantly in future versions. While there ARE long sightlines, they don't provide much advantage (except for the one awful one from the dirt ramp at last to 2nd).
7: Signage is adequate, but add signage outside both forward spawns as well as possibly angle the 2nd forward spawn towards the enemy to insinuate the correct direction.

Anything I'm missing? Any bugfixes I forgot?
 

Ravidge

Grand Vizier
aa
May 14, 2008
1,544
2,818

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
List of major changes I plan to make in a6: (just to get them out there...)

1: At middle, reduce the height of the two "hoodoos" or plateaus enough that scouts can reach them from the CP. Change the metal plate cover into a rock. Add cover behind the stairs in order to block line of sight/firing through them.

2: Total rework of 2nd, including removing the current stairs and instead adding a large ramp room to the area between the catwalks & the hole now. This change will alter the traffic flow and sightlines of that large room beneath the hole on the bottom. The whole area around the hole will be made about half the size it is now, with the hole becoming smaller and the area between the hole and the outside wall (the wall that runs from 1st to the fwd respawn) raised up and having cover added in the form of a rock. The CP will have a metal plate added for cover from the side by the new ramp. The forward spawn will be made one-way (no reentry).

3: The area between last & 2nd will be rearranged to cut off all line of sight to 2nd. The wide flank path from the ramp to the side of 2nd will be made much shorter but provide better angles. The metal bridge will be turned 90 degrees so that it can't be used to spam last so easily, and instead there will be a new recessed walkway along the cliff wall (that leads to the wide path to 2nd). Cover will be added to the area under the hole. Spawn times for defenders at last will be raised by ~2 seconds.
 
Last edited:

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=2326

Alpha 6 - 8/30
* Height of hoodoos at middle lowered.
* Cliff added behind stairs at middle, low rock added to yard.
* The stairs on 2nd have been replaced with a new, large room with a set of stairs on the other side of that pathway. This change reduces many of the large sight lines on the lower level.
* Area beside 2nd significantly smaller, flow changed by making hole smaller, adding a raised area, and moving the back wall in.
* Last has been altered to allow for more room to fight in front of the building and access the roof, as well as by altering the location of the flanking path to 2nd.

This version mostly addressed the sightlines and angles that were causing issues, as well as the hugeness of the area around 2nd. It's much improved overall, so that the whole flow of the map should be much nicer. ^_^

-FoXy

EDIT: All of the screens in the 1st post are outdated, I should have some time to take new ones tonight. :3
 

Remix

L69: Deviant Member
Feb 27, 2008
69
15
Feedback from my buddies last night during the playtesting session:

1) Map is still too large and open, especially for 6v6 comp play. This is mostly evident during the push out to mid. The scouts get there at the same time as the demo, and then the soldiers and medic don't get to mid for another 5-6 seconds. I think that is a little too long of a gap. One person last night said something like this: "He should just select everything in the entire map, and shrink it. Then it would be a good map."

2) They also talked about the location of the 2 respawn area. One person suggested you put it down in the stairwell. He said that this would actually get people into the lower area more often.

3) It is still very difficult to play demoman here. It is mostly due to the lack of any chokepoints, put also due to the great amount of flanking routes. Once I actually cut a route off, 2 scouts would very easily flank me and kill me.
 

Barncow

L1: Registered
Aug 11, 2009
6
5
uploading a shrunk version of a screenshot at mid. Seemed as though I was getting caught on something that prevented me from moving forward if you approach on the left edge.

Also, there are a lot of very sharp inclines on this map. Its hard as a soldier to accurately take care of enemies when caught on these inclines.
 

littleedge

L1111: Clipping Guru
aa
Mar 2, 2009
986
605
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/cp_spillway_a60001.jpg
Floating rock.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/cp_spillway_a60002.jpg
Unaligned brushes.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/cp_spillway_a60003.jpg
That step is too high up - You have to jump to get on it.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/cp_spillway_a60004.jpg
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/cp_spillway_a60005.jpg
That is why people get stuck. There is a displacement sticking up.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/cp_spillway_a60006.jpg
Unaligned brushes on the right again.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/cp_spillway_a60008.jpg
See where I am?
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1490725/cp_spillway_a60007.jpg
If I rocket jump up there, there are multiple places I get stuck on that wall as I fall down.
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
Proposed change list for a7:

- Fix angles of the wide cave route between 2nd & 1st to make the sightlines more favorable to offense in either direction
- Add flood-gates on the entryways to either side of the hole room to limit the spammability of that area from outside, thus making a safer place to chill out
- Move the main spawn rooms into the warehouse building they now open onto, reducing walk time to point and removing useless space
- Alter the angle at which the tunnel from the caves at middle to the CP approach the point to make it more beneficial to attackers trying to flank the CP (make the angle sharper)
- Add small health pack at the bottom of the stairway room
- Change medium health pack at the wide cave route from 1st to 2nd into a small
- Stretch the large rock arch at middle (that separates yard from middle) back towards 2nd so that it blocks sight lines from middle to the upper levels of 2nd
- BUG FIXES: clipping on hills at middle (displacements will be remade), respawn cabinets at main spawns clipping through walls, clipping on concrete ledge at middle, further lower hoodoo to allow easier scout jumping (again >_>)
 

Jack Riguel

L10: Glamorous Member
Jul 19, 2009
721
254
I feel as if I was unjustly unfair about the map when we were testing it earlier today. Let me try to say my complaints about this map in a more organized form them my random jabbering whilst in the server.

I like the idea. I remember you said you were trying to do a Hydro-like map but based around a series of canyons and long passageways, rather then using the open spaces that are connected via smaller passageways.

After some thought I believe I've narrowed down my dislike of the map too two main issues: defensive capabilities and the sight-lines.

You say in your post above that you're fixing the second cap to favour offensive teams, and in the server you said that it's natural that once the center cap is taken the others usually quickly fall afterwords. That doesn't mean that you should design it as such. You did a good job covering the final cap, but the second cap is way to easy to take already, an it's due to the amount of pathways that an offensive team can overrun it. After the middle cap, all the preceding caps should progressively get harder to attack and easier to defend. Look at maps like Granary and Badlands. Both second caps are designed to favour the defenders, either through use of cover or through that of holding the high-ground.

As for the sight-lines, I found myself looking too much towards the sky rather then straight ahead. This is mostly a displacement and detail issue so I understand if it's not as high of a priority at the moment. As it stands though, I feel as if the walls are too high and jagged. Usually canyons are slanted in a "V" shape, slowly smoothing out as they get to the top. I think if you were to do something like this and change more of the pathways into caves it would greatly ease the strain on the eyes and better the flow (especially if you limit the canyon part itself too a single winding stretch rather then one with several splits.)

With that being said I really do enjoy this map, and I can't wait to see what you do with the detailing once your map reaches beta. Godspeed to you. :)
 

B3RING3R

L1: Registered
Aug 20, 2009
3
1
Stick the spawn building at the center control point out from the wall so it point you in the direction you should be going. This will also allow for more platforms above the middle cp.

There is still way too much space. The weird ramp room between 3 and 4 on the right isn't a valid area for fighting, and I think it should pretty much be removed. The building on the left side isn't very useful either. I would put another 50% health in the middle room, neither the one in the puddle nor the 20% by the rock are appealing choices to pick up. Also the final cp probably needs to be reworked; personally I don't really like it at all. It's very campable, and when I get there neither going past the left or right side of the cp ever seems attractive. One is too flat and open, and the other is so steep you walk right up into a sentry/demo/etc.
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
[ Here's the full spiel including new screens, 1st post is updated ]

DL: http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=2413

Screens: http://img6.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=cpspillwaya70009.jpg

TF2Maps: [ame="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?p=77948#post77948"]CP Spillway - TF2Maps.net[/ame]

Alpha 7 - 9/7
* Closed off path from the yard to the lower/hole area
* Created a one-way door into the stairway room
* Turned the wide cave path into a tunnel/building
* Added a new staircase from the hole area to the new tunnel building
* Raised height of cliffs around last
* Added a laz0r on the final CP spawn buildings
* Height of hoodoos at middle lowered
* Additional rock added to middle
* New sign at middle
* Extended rock arch into the yard to block sightlines
* Added new rock arch high above the yard
* Many new details added
* Retextured all rock walls to align with the new higher cliffs around last
* Moved some health around, making the medium health in the tunnel a small and adding a small into the stairway room
* Added a small ammo to corner of the 2nd floor by the 2nd CP

Known Issues:
* Texture for one sign on the BLU side hole area is missing
* Clipping on the hills at middle is atrocious, will be fixed in a7a coming soon
* Power cord for the laser totally goes through the roof of the spawns
 

FreeLance_FoX

L6: Sharp Member
Sep 6, 2008
353
173
Indeed, I have to agree with Mangy here. While I'm definitely getting the vibe that last is too hard to attack (and, additionally, 2nd when the number of players gets high), the issue really isn't the CP building.

It wasn't like the offense was getting up to that building and surrounding it and the defenders were just holding them off. Not at all! It was just that with the number of approaches to the last CP area, no concentrated attack could be mounted (by an unorganized team) that potent enough to punch through both the first line of defense at the rock/arch area or the flanking tunnel area AND get into the last CP. It's almost like having another yard surrounding the last CP, except that it's not a "yard" as much as it's just the exterior of the building.

By forcing the offense to go around to the back (or top) of the building, I'm eliminating forcing the offense to actually KILL the defenders instead of just moving them off the point with spam. Plus, if I were to make that window into a door... it would basically make last 3 seconds away from 2nd, no joking. Can you say scout rush?

Thanks for the feedback nonetheless chrono, I intend to make some large changes to the flow of last in the future (mostly on the defensive side).