Someone fix Granary. Please.

[A Boojum Snark]

Doublepost woo!

I reordered the spawns so red starts on the left, as well as tweaking the positions of red's spawns so they are identical to blu (a handful were a few units different), along with an overall reordering of both to a strict left-to-right progression, rather than just using how blu was by default.
I also extracted, wiped, and re-embedded the cubemaps so they work properly in the renamed map and aren't doubled up.

Map: http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=4664
Video of how they spawn now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSkfivxSdj8

 

[Terr]

I still say locking the spawn doors for a few seconds during the map start is a better solution

 

[A Boojum Snark]

They probably wouldn't want that because that would mean a change to their existing rollout action sequence.

That said, I don't see how it is better. It isn't exactly worse, but it kinda is. One way you are changing the "flow" of the map by creating an arbitrary artificial barrier based on time. The other way you simply spawn somewhere else.

 

[Terr]

They probably wouldn't want that because that would mean a change to their existing rollout action sequence.

I suspect most spawn doors simply do not open fast enough to feasibly rocket-jump through them, so one way or another people are on the ground, walking, at the point when the doors allow them to pass.

So it's not "changing" their action sequence as much as "deleting" the first few seconds with the significant benefit of making sure both teams are on equal footing.

Perhaps the only real change would be a very slight decrease in the disparity of arrival times between faster and slower classes, since the slow classes would "catch up" to the spawn-door barrier... And I do mean "slight", when you consider the distance within the spawn versus the remaining distance to the center.

 

[waxpax]

Thanks a lot, Boojum! I'm going to do a quick test on the map and just make sure it doesn't do anything weird, then I'm going to start the campaign to get this version played in ESEA until Valve decides to steal your fix and officially update the map.

Also, Terr, usually the first static jump that a demo or soldier makes will put them next to the door, then the door is opened in preparation for your next jump. Sometimes people will go fast with gunboats, even then, the door opens fast enough that it doesn't really slow anyone down, unless the door glitches, anyway.

 

[honeymustard]

There's still the problem of spawning close to the wall, as a demoman (or medic), when the other team doesn't, meaning that it's extremely difficult to use one sticky to get to the cabinet, and if a medic is there, to heal the demoman constantly (if he loses him, it's hard to get back onto him). Every other 5cp map doesn't have this.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Well I could have moved that one too, but nobody mentioned it in the week this sat here from when I asked what was wanted until I got around to it, so I figured there wasn't anything else. :/

 

[EArkham]

I suspect most spawn doors simply do not open fast enough to feasibly rocket-jump through them, so one way or another people are on the ground, walking, at the point when the doors allow them to pass.

I thought the issue comp players have with doors is due to how easy it is for demos to sticky them for a free kill? Especially bad if they're the major entrances, like the ones on the last point.

Kep

 

[tyler]

In the case of the setup doors, it modified the way the mid played unfavorably because you'd have all of both teams fighting over it immediately, instead of the scouts + roamers or whatever.

In the case of adding a locking door at spawn, why not just spend the same amount of time doing what they actually asked for?

 

[Terr]

If you believe that symmetrical treatment to both teams is the highest goal, then start-up doors (as close to the spawn positions as possible) are the best solution.

• It renders irrelevant the order in which spawns are filled. That's non-obviously tricky to tweak in Hammer.
• It renders irrelevant the order in which individual team members are assigned to slots. ("Their soldier started near a wall, while our soldier started in a worse spot.") This is impossible to control via mapping.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

To me, it is very obvious how spawns are filled and not tricky at all. It is quite simply first to last in the order they appear in the data. If you clone groups of spawns at once you risk inconsistent results but if you do them all one at a time there is no tweaking needed.

Worrying about which class spawns where goes beyond my personal threshold of legitimate issues, as it treads close to the discussion of the inherent psychological imbalance of fighting in a cool or warm colored area affecting your behavior.

 

[honeymustard]

Well it's more than that - a demoman who reaches the resup cabinet will be faster to middle than one who can't make the jump because he's spawned against the wall. Likewise if a demoman doesn't get buffed to 260 on his rollout because a medic can't reach him, he'll have the disadvantage on middle.

 

[LeSwordfish]

the discussion of the inherent psychological imbalance of fighting in a cool or warm colored area affecting your behavior.

Oh man, watch me be paranoid about that and fix that carefully while forgetting to have a winnable game.