pl_hoodoo [Final release]

[Chilly]

It's picture time! I'll work through each stage. All of the blue dots are acceptable offensive sentry locations. All of the red dots are acceptable defensive sentry locations. The thing about sentry locations is that if there's a limited number of good spots the attackers will always look to those same spots. This is true on Dustbowl until you reach the second half of the 3rd stage, where it opens up and the good locations increase quite a bit. So it's generally much better to design areas instead of specific sentry spots, if that makes sense.

Things that make a good defensive sentry location:
1. Limited long sight lines from the attacker's side of the map.
2. Nearby metal (medium or large).
3. View of heavily traveled areas, especially choke points.
4. An escape path (if your sentry is about to go down).
5. Higher ground.
6. Lack of lower ground (ie spam traps, which catch nades and funnel them).
7. Protected corners that you can sit behind while wrenching your sentry.
8. Reverse views of cart paths (build pointing in the same direction as the cart movement, but from a hidden spot so the sentry hits the attackers from behind).
9. Overhead obstacles to prevent stickies from coming over walls, buildings, etc.

Roofs generally make excellent sentry locations if they're not in really long sight lines. The reason is that they generally have limited access to them, but provide an infinite number of escape routes for the engineer. They're higher ground and a teleporter can help bring many teammates to these good locations. For an example play on pl_happycow sometime.

Also, a good rule of thumb is to reduce areas where a sentry can't shoot across from one side to the other. This increases the number of good natural spots by quite a bit.










The letters are for areas that could be converted to good sentry locations without a huge amount of work.

A: With a hoodoo at the large dot to reduce sight lines and an escape tunnel behind, this is probably the best forward spot for a sentry. The carts should be moved/removed for a more open line of sight in that direction. This isn't overpowered (OP) because of the line of sight from the far path and the fact that it's a nade trap and can be cornered by a pyro easily. By the way, the red dot above is my favorite sentry position. I put a level 2 there and nobody notices until it gets a handful of kills.

B: This would require a balcony on the rear half of the building, and a stairway leading up. It needs to overlook the cart path while being protected from the blue spawn. It's not OP because demomen can attack from below easily.

C: This spot is mostly useless right now because it can get hit so easily from the far ledge without being able to shoot that far back. To change this, you'd have to lower the height of the windows considerably and/or increase the depth of the room so a sentry would be more protected. Another option would be turning this into a 2 story structure with a balcony, assuming the balcony is within sentry range of the far ledge. Also, demomen on the nearby ledge can too easily bounce nades into that room. If the side door were turned into a window or closed completely it would help.

D : This is a fun spot to build, but kind of useless right now. It takes too long to get up there during setup since you need to build a dispenser. Then once you're up there you get no protection from the side facing the blue spawn. Increasing the height of the building with the white roof would help a lot, as would adding a stairway to the rear of the building. It's not OP since demomen can hug the building to sticky it, spies could get up with a stairway, and all classes can hit it from the buildings without taking much damage at that distance.

E: This would be an awesome spot. Make the upper level into a balcony that can overlook the path below from a couple of angles. Slightly OP, but people can just avoid it until it's taken out.

F: This would require that you remove the lower path. It seems people prefer the upper mine path for setting up forward bases/ubers anyway. In the next room over you could add a balcony in that corner and a lip around the wall so engineers can get over there. This wouldn't be OP since people could easily take it out by using the upper route, but it's an easy extra option for sentries.

G: Make this roof buildable and add a few boxes to the rear platform so people can access it. Requires plenty of planning from the engineer since he has to dispenser up the rock and then jump across, but it would be a really fun spot. Not OP since soldiers can hit from the far upper path and demomen can hit from the doorway below. Would be awesomely fun.

H: The problem with this spot is that soldiers and demomen can take it out from the upper 1 way door without any chance of being killed themselves. To remedy this you'd have to change up that side platform a bit by making it 2 levels. This would give the sentry a clear view of the door. Narrowing that entire platform would have the same effect, but I like the look of it wide like that. Nearby I've X'd the little wall that doesn't seem to have a purpose other than robbing me of a decent sentry spot.

I: By making full-height windows up here, you give a sentry a clear view of the entire spawn area. It'd get taken out pretty quick, but it's almost required since there's no good sentry spots up here right now.

J: Adding a small building/platform/ledge here would be excellent. A ramp or stairway should come up from the back. It's a good spot since you get a clear view of the cart as it comes around the corner as well as the shortcut door and upper ledge on the other side. It's not OP since attackers can hit it from long range through the 1-way door. It would make the stage much harder for the attackers, which I think is necessary.

K: The problem with this building now is that the large doorway and long sight lines makes it impossible to build here. Anything in here gets taken out really fast. To remedy this the doorway should be moved halfway down the building so that corner is completely protected. Windows should be left open on the rest of the building so a sentry in here can hit the path. A little OP, but demomen and ubers can still take it out pretty easily, and it would make this last area harder to attack overall.

Hope this helps. I don't really think changes are necessary for hoodoo, but perhaps this will give you insight for your next project.

 

[Uriak]

Nice work Chilly, hope it may help Yume tidy things up.

Still, Chilly, nowadays, entire zones are almost not used by defense. Of course if the defensive team makes wonders, by continually killing medics/triggering early ubers, and protecting sentries with demomen and leafblowing pyros, that's another story. But you can't expect that in most situations . You talked about dustbowl but in the three stages, you may fortify the start of the stage with great succes (almost to the point of being frustrating, somehow). It's the same thing with goldrush. In Hoodoo, my feeling is that experienced players try to directly to defend at the best suited choke (the left turn in stage 1, the passage with the catwalk in stage 2). It's fine but really predictable.

http://psychostats.canardplus.com/mapheat.php?id=74

The first stage works fine, though, so I wouldn't bother. The second is more tricky. If defenders hold the F positions its acceptable, but if they are overthrown from the building at the end of the long straight line, they are set in a very unconfortable state. And that happens almost everytime.

In the third stage, I find it a pity that after the first choke, the U curve that lead to the last CP witnesses almost no fight. I know in goldrush, this could be said about the entire area between first chekpoint and 2nd checkpoint of third stage. The "fallback" mechanic in TF2 is somehow troublesome... but it's that that makes the difference between average and excellent defensive teamates.

PS : I looked closely at your skybox and must say you made some awesome work on it

 

[YM]

Thanks for all that chilly, I think I typed out a responce several times but I dunno what happened to each of them, I've thoroughly considered everything you've said and I plan to act on a few of the suggestions.

For now have a preview of what I'll be making in the next few days: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28746141@N08/2962118571/

 

[Arhurt]

Nice pan Youme. Is it just me or are you doing this by hand? There are free tools out there that will do the hard work automatically for you.

 

[Chilly]

Thanks for all that chilly, I think I typed out a responce several times but I dunno what happened to each of them, I've thoroughly considered everything you've said and I plan to act on a few of the suggestions.

For now have a preview of what I'll be making in the next few days: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28746141@N08/2962118571/

You're welcome. As someone who has done panoramas before I'll give you a word of advice... take the screenshots from as close to the middle of the area as possible. You'll get less distortion of the image. Looking forward to seeing those, though.

 

[YM]

Nice pan Youme. Is it just me or are you doing this by hand? There are free tools out there that will do the hard work automatically for you.

nah it was a quick photoshop 'photomerge' I didn't think my version had that feature but it does.
Photoshop is a bit rubbish when it comes to photomerges, I've found before that stitching them together by hand is actually easier sometimes...

I figure a lower FOV creates less distortion so I'm gunna take some more screenshots and experiment more later today.

 

[ColdFire]

pl_hoodoo is for weeks now on my servers, and with b3 there's still THE big problem: spawncamp and spawnkilling: it's easy to shoot in the blu spawn, especially in the first 2 rounds, and my players think you should do something about the doors of the red spawn in round 1: turning back to the action when you exit the spawn is confusing for 1st time players. Since these doors are here for the 2nd round, maybe add doors on the sides, locked for 2nd round? With big arrows saying "take this door!"?

I think the spawns are now the only complain my players have about your map

*please please please*

 

[Chilly]

pl_hoodoo is for weeks now on my servers, and with b3 there's still THE big problem: spawncamp and spawnkilling: it's easy to shoot in the blu spawn, especially in the first 2 rounds, and my players think you should do something about the doors of the red spawn in round 1: turning back to the action when you exit the spawn is confusing for 1st time players. Since these doors are here for the 2nd round, maybe add doors on the sides, locked for 2nd round? With big arrows saying "take this door!"?

Gold Rush's first 2 stages require players to turn back to the action, as does Dustbowl stage 1. If anything, Youme should just add a "Do not enter" overlay to the doors right outside the red spawn on stage 1. I'm not sure it's that big of a deal though since players are confused for a second or two tops before they turn and have nowhere else to go but toward the action.

I can see the issue with the blue spawns, though. Stage 1 isn't too bad since players can come out of the left door and be almost completely protected by the props in the middle. Adding a small wall in there that protects that left door from the outside door on the right would be a simple fix I think.

I don't see any problem with Stage 2 right now. It has the bridge which protects players from the lower doors and the lower area to protect players from the upper doors. It can be a bit of a nade trap in there, but not any more than Dustbowl's first 2 stages. If teams are taking ubers out of the gate as they should it shouldn't be an issue.

Stage 3 could definitely use something in the spawn area to help protect the players a bit. A large truck prop in the middle would be an easy fix, since it's a garage anyway. Or you could put a small pile of boxes in there or something similar. Not much is needed, but something to dodge behind to avoid nade spam wouldn't hurt.

Of course, adding protections to players in all of the spawns wouldn't hurt as long as it doesn't clutter them too much.

 

[MangyCarface]

Two things:

-Buggy one-way above 1:2. Will animate as open but won't be able to run through it. Noticed on several servers so far.
-Unacceptably dark areas. Most notably some corners in the left building with a healthpack right before 3:2. I'll try to remember the rest...

 

[ColdFire]

On the first stage, red demomen can spam grenades in the blu building (ok, it's not the spawn itself, but next to it, so it's quite the same). I know there's the side door, but when grenades arrive by dozen by the front ground-level door, you can't really use the side one. So there would be the higher front door, the one on the left (left for blu guys as they leave their spawn). But this door is easily covered by a red sniper. And on the red point, a blu sniper can snipe from the back, without going outside, it's really annoying.

So when pl_hoodoo is the current map, first thing I do, I enable my talk to all players and say firmly: "reds, let blu go out, blu snipers: have balls, don't snipe from the inside"

For the red spawn, maybe add signs saying "hep guy, not this way, go to the sides!"

For the second stage: here again, it's easy to camp the blu building. Well, blu could go out with an ubercharge to clean the red campers, but they shouldn't have to do that.
On the other side of the second stage, it's easy for blu to block reds from leaving their spawn by grenade-spamming and rocket spamming while the cart approches the end of the stage.

For the third stage, we rarely go up to the 3rd stage since, often, defense win (by spawnkilling), so I don't really have things to say. We played it yesterday, had fun, I really like this stage.

To conclude, yes, dustbowl or goldrush or <insert valve map name here> may do this way, but well, valve doesn't mean 100% perfect all the time, right?

 

[Chilly]

Well, blu could go out with an ubercharge to clean the red campers, but they shouldn't have to do that.
On the other side of the second stage, it's easy for blu to block reds from leaving their spawn by grenade-spamming and rocket spamming while the cart approches the end of the stage.

...

To conclude, yes, dustbowl or goldrush or <insert valve map name here> may do this way, but well, valve doesn't mean 100% perfect all the time, right?

I guess I just see those as standard tactics required in TF2. Most of the time teams have sentries and a mass of people outside spawn areas, so the attackers have to use an uber at the start to clear the area. I play demoman a lot so I find it fun to try breaking up the ubercharge.

As for blu attacking the red spawn, this is a standard tactic on payload maps as well. Most defensive spawns on Valve maps have only 1 exit, so camping them is generally a viable (although unfortunate) strategy for winning. It's not hard to add a second exit in many cases. The thing is, when the map ends up on 32 player instant respawn servers, being able to camp that exit is really the only way to win a stage. I'm not saying maps should be designed with that in mind, but it's something to consider.

I hate instant respawn servers.

True that Valve isn't always right on stuff. In this case it's my opinion that they are, for balance reasons. However, I've been wrong quite a bit before (just ask my wife) so I might be wrong again.

 

[Uriak]

Turning spawn back to the action is not a bad thing. It prevents running straight both onto the objective and sure death (if BLU try to spawn camp) Moreover it "defines" a zone where one could be tagged as spawn camper (the rear of the spawn) and let people freely aim at the side passage. Fight has to start at one point or another doesn' it ?

This don't mean encouraging SC to achieve the last goal is good design per se.

 

[grazr]

Well, blu could go out with an ubercharge to clean the red campers, but they shouldn't have to do that.

Isn't this standard gameplay on all A/D maps?

Not to mention a sentry on any map that has good cover by teammates will nearly always require either a lucky full team assault or an uber to take out; if the engi is attatched at the hip to his sentry atleast.

spawn camping should not really happen, this is why spawns are reverted away from firing lines and the objective. Passing the objective to spawn camp is a sad gameplay tactic that ruins fun for both sides.

All your suggestions seem valid other than the need to make it assaultable without an uber.

I do agree a single sentry shouldn't be able to lock down an area, and if this is the case it should be re-evaluated. But a double or tripple sentry position will nearly always require an uber, or even two. This is the difference in teamwork in team fortress2. Which ever team is the most organised will likely win.

One problem i had when testing my map was that the teams were not evenly balanced in ,terms of skill; so one team moaned a lot whilst the other enjoyed an easy game.

 

[Bun]

*slight bump*
I just saw this, our team is playing highlander cup, look at our first enemies maps.
1. pl_goldrush 2. cp_dustbowl (3. pl_hoodoo_b3)

 

[Jamster]

Hi Youme,

I don't know if you know of this bug in the current version of your map and I apologise if you do.

I do not know what produces it but it seems the cart moves by itself sometimes at the start of the round setup, find linked below a demo of it happening on our server.
http://www.iamontheinternets.com/tf2server/rec/auto-20081026-2059-pl_hoodoo_b3.7z
The cart starts moving by itself roughly 13 minutes in, I think, I couldn't give you an exact time.

Our server is a Windows 2003 TF2 server, running SourceMod 1.1 hg2306, if you would like any more info I would be happy to supply it.

 

[YM]

I've no idea what could be causing this, is it a recurrant problem or did it just happen the once?
I tried to replicate the effect, with no sucess.

 

[Jamster]

It happened again last night actually, here's the demo (this should be the right one):
http://www.iamontheinternets.com/tf2server/rec/auto-20081028-2111-pl_hoodoo_b3.7z
I'll give you any more if it happens again, the players on our server will let me know. Strange bug really, b2 was fine, it never did it once, same install of everything else too.

 

[YM]

Must be one of the things I changed at that point, I had to tweak a few things because some people were getting another bug I couldn't replicate... these bugs I cant recreate are a right pain.

 

[bob+M|M+]

I found some clipping issues throughout the map. Haven't read the entire thread, but I'm sure there are some things you may not have noticed.

Most of these places relate to abusive jumping demomen (aka myself ^_^)


Stage 1:

You can land on top of here. Change to no collision?

When a scout jumps through this area, he is caught by the collision of the lights. Also you can land on top of these.

Nice place for demoman to camp at spawn.

Interesting spots for demoman to defend from:

Good places for demoman to spawn camp. Also have you considered changing the holes in roof to invisible texture vs playerclip?

Different angle: Demoman can also land on the ledge up on that cliff.

When demoman stands here:

An unprimed shot will land here: (and If you prime your shot a little you can imagine being able to direct your shot further.)

Again, you may have planned it that way, but I'm just making sure you are aware of this.





Stage 2:

Not particularly useful, but attacking demoman can fly up here and start spamming away

Walkable edge:

You can land on the cliff up here somewhere

This wood looks like it has a black texture on one face, also it is nicely player-clipped from the front, but not the back.

Playerclip the ceiling of the underside of this walkway?

Nice little spot on top of the window:

More places for demoman to land:

Some good spawn camp spots for demoman:

Stage 3:

Fun (bit difficult spot to get to) to spawn camp:

Inside spawn:

You can land on this ledge from the outside. Not a big deal though.

Hope that helps, to prevent people like me from abusing interesting spots and spamming pipes.
I searched the map thoroughly, and these are the only issues I found.

bob+M|M+

 

[Chilly]

You can land on top of here. Change to no collision?

I actually like this one. There are places like this on Dustbowl and while they're not used much they can be fun once in a while.

Walkable edge:

Woo! Thanks for posting this picture. This is where I thought a sentry area would be great. You'd need some way up and some metal up there, but it'd be a pretty good spot if expanded out a bit.