New game mode? King of the Mountain

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by FunkyHoratio, Oct 23, 2011.

  1. FunkyHoratio

    FunkyHoratio L1: Registered

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    So I've just finished debugging the entity setup on what I think is a new game mode - I've dubbed it Advanced Capture Point, and its a variation on linear capture point maps. Upload of vmf is http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=4929.
    It consists of a central winning capture point that only becomes enabled once a certain number of capture points around it have been captured, by either team. In the example map here, I've set it up to be: capture any 3 of 4 points, to enable capture of central point, but it could really be any number of combinations.
    I'm interested in making a gameplay mode that is more complex than simple linear attack/defend cp maps, so by adding the additional complexity of allowing any capture point to be held, and requiring multiple capture points to be defended, I'm hoping it will lend itself to more strategy, and will probably suit more professional, rather than public, gameplay. But it could also be really fun/chaotic to play - who knows? I'd love to hear people's thoughts on whether they think this is a good/bad idea...
    I've got a layout in the planning stage, and hope to have a basic layout map done in a month or two.

    Edit: Just noticed I got the title of the thread wrong! I was toying with the name King of the Mountain, but thought it would get confused with KOTH.. :|
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
  2. Jeremy

    Jeremy L11: Posh Member

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    Okay,

    I'm assuming this is like 5CP (perhaps not with the exact amount of control points, but the same principle anyhow), but the center control point wins the round, and this center point must be held for a total of 3 minutes. It's also sort of like Steel, in a way that you can either go straight for the middle point, or capture all the other control points preceding it to make your passage to the center point easier.

    It's an interesting concept, but I feel it might be a bit confusing. I'm interested to see how this plays.
     
  3. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Well there are a couple inherent flaws in this game mode concept which include the fact that some of the current game modes work so well because they are so simple. KoTH and CTF are as simple as you can get and understood by even the most novice of FPS players. It's difficult enough getting players to rally together for Steal and/or gravelpit style CP maps which are official game modes in a public server environment. It's just as difficult dealing with hybrid modes like CTF-AD.

    Also by increasing the number of parameters required to win a game, such as controlling 3 CP's at once and capping the central CP, you increase the chances of stalemates. Sometimes KoTH CP's are hard enough to capture back without having to meet other objective based requirements; especially if capturing another sub-CP can lock the captured middle point during a counter-capture, leading to a number of capture blocks without even having a physical presence at the contested CP.

    It sounds like the kind of map where it would get played for at least over an hour in full servers because of all the chaos by having such an amount of map in play at one time and so many active objectives. Which makes it a very niche kind of mode for players as many are used to the 15-20-30 minute rounds on arena, KoTH, CTF and CP's.
     
  4. FunkyHoratio

    FunkyHoratio L1: Registered

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    SirRaffi: yeah, I'm unsure about the centre cap, whether I want it to be cap+hold, similar to KOTH, or just a longer capture time. It's a fairly minor change, logic wise, so I'll experiment and see. And it will be similar to steel, except that teams will have to cap at least 3 points, before centre becomes enabled.
    grazr: I know it's more confusing, but I think with some good diagrams in spawn rooms (I'm thinking pre-football-match chalkboard style) I can get new players to understand the concept. I might need to add additional voice prompts or something like that... One of the principles that might make a difference to a team trying to knock someone off of centre, is the ability of a weaker team to capture just 1 point, to take away a stronger team's required 3 capped points, which would then knock them off centre.
    I totally agree that it will spread out gameplay to a wide range of objectives, but I think that is nice. I really like maps like steel and granary, where you are defending on multiple fronts, but I don't think it needs to be limited to pure defence maps, I think it could work with both teams having to attack/defend multiple fronts.
    Thanks for the responses, I'll let you all know how its going! :)
     
  5. Regularjoe

    Regularjoe L1: Registered

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    The problem with having lots of objectives:
    How do you make people fight each other instead of just going for ninja caps?

    Cp_steel works because the center point is very very easy to defend. It has the longest capture rate of any point on any valve map. It cannot be reached by all classes. There is not much room to dodge explosive spam while standing on it. There are several good spots to shoot down on it from. It is right next to the spawn rooms. Etc.

    Cp_gravelpit works because it has very long cap times and quickly collapses into having only one open objective. Also, B is much easier to defend than A. That's why heavies and engineers go to defend B when the round starts. Defending two points against an equally powerful team is nigh impossible, and if they have to hold out on one point, they prefer B.
     
  6. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    after people learn their way around, the gameplay risks to get reduced to gravelpit standart - defend the most defendable point out of multiple simultaneously available points, ignoring the rest.
     
  7. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Just be aware that KoTH and PL (and to a certain extent CTF) are the most popular game modes for a reason. They focus combat at a single objective.

    Splitting the map into 4-5 active objectives makes sentry nests really powerful as even an engi with a mini sentry is awkward enough to deal with as an individual player (even a draw where you both die is a win in the larger context of the game as a defending engi since you delay a capture and often leave your mini sentry active after your death). A single player will find combatting a level 3 sentry nest almost impossible and even a coordinated pair will have difficulty taking out 1 wise engineer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  8. possiblylethal

    possiblylethal L1: Registered

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    Maybe the win condition should be to hold the most capture points at the end of the timelimit? The center point could be unlockable at X time or all other points are capped, or some combo of both. This way even random dming (which is mostly what happens in pubs. Points are capped and karts pushed merely on accident) is useful to some extent.

    This would make it harder for engineers to put up sentrys, as their would always be a reason for some random to be walking through (checking for an easy cap). It is my belief that if the map is done right sentry's are never in such a place where they impossible to kill. Also, with the players rushing out of spawn to gobble up the capture points in the beginning, setting up a level 3 sentry should be no easy task.

    This would also stop the, in Sergis' words, "gravelpit standar(d)." If their was a "super" point, then that is only one cap that 1 team has. 1/5 will not let you win the gamemode.

    Whats wrong with ninja caps? Cant defend, cant win.
     
  9. FunkyHoratio

    FunkyHoratio L1: Registered

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    I meant gravelpit here, brain was fuzzed last night, too much mann manor...

    So one of the things I think I'll have in my favour, is that this map won't have setup time. Since its not attack/defend, both teams will need to move quickly from start to grab territory, and grab (and hold) favourable positions. That may reduce the power that engies have, because it should limit their chance to setup a heavy defence. They can probably setup a defence on the point closest to their spawn, but thats ok, cos the opposition doesn't necessarily need to get that point, to capture the centre (due to the 3-of-4 mechanic). I think this will force teams who want to just defend, to defend at least 2 capture points, splitting themselves up and inherently weakening their defensive capabilities.

    possiblylethal: yeah, i did toy with doing an old style Territory Control map (I seem to remember original TF had maps like this) where you get 1 point for holding a CP for 30 secs, or something like that. Most points at end of round wins. I might setup this mechanic as well, I've got most of the logic infrastructure in place for this already... The layout I'm designing should hopefully work well for a few different logics.

    I think i should also be very careful as to the areas i create, so as to not make too many possible sentry nests.

    grazr: definitely agree, 4-5 active areas is probably too many, i might have to consider my layout so as to naturally focus attention on 2-3 points at a time. I think in practice, if each team haevily defends the point closest to their spawn, it really only leaves 2 points for contest, and then the final point when that opens.

    Thanks all for your thoughts, its good to have to some experienced perspectives on this!
     
  10. phantombadger

    phantombadger L2: Junior Member

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    I agree with Grarz TF2 and complex dont work. Hydro and steel IMO are great maps and concepts. They are pretty dead in server count as opposed to CTF and KOTH; only cuz they are complex.

    I think that a standard 5 cap with cap and holds on the last point might work better. cuz I know sometimes its frustrating to have a blitz on a map like Well where the CPs can fall in 30 sec and you lose cuz the respawn timers. but if you had to hold it for a few min it would make it more challenging. but I guess this could also be fixed by increasing the cap time on the last point, like in lazytown where its 30sec instead of 5 in well.

    I guess if you wanted to KOTH the last point on a/d then you might wanna a just the clocks so assault has 3 min to hold till win and defense has 10 min( the standard round time limit).

    Just some thoughts. look forward to see it in action though, what ever you decide on it.