Map Submission Rules & TwinTowers Apology

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by NoderNaeta, Sep 5, 2017.

  1. NoderNaeta

    NoderNaeta L1: Registered

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    Last night, I uploaded a recreation level of the WTC much to my poor assessment. Like every map you make, you learn from it. In this case, it was not only in Hammer, but for a community. I accept embarrasment and retaliation for this, because I hurt the community I sincerely appreciate. Which leads me to regain composure for the next point.

    Before working on TwinTowers, I searched for any rules about submitting sensitive content - which turns out there are no rules to submissions. I was blind to how players would receive the map, since I based it off TF2's demake, GG2's TwinTowers. Which was met by indifferent server owners including it in their rotations, and players unoccupied with the environment.

    At this time though, I owe this community an apology. Someone in my position should be a better judge of illicit work. I'd made the stupid assumption that people were going to approach the map much like the community before it. I apologize.

    To learn from this mistake though, rules are set to prevent wrong doing. There are no rules that I found that draw the line for map submissions. Such as obscene content or stolen work. Since a map is only limited by the mapper's imagination, which is our tremendously powerful creative muscle, there's unlimited good as there is bad to come from it.

    A simple page about what kind of levels you are not allowed to post would only be there to prevent egregious work, just like every other gaming community does.
     
  2. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Ask yourself this - If there is no rule explicitly stating something against the rules, is it still OK?

    Maybe that rule wasn't in place because the admins didn't think anyone would actually want to break it in the first place. Or maybe they didn't want to come over overly authoritarian by trying to define exactly what is and isn't allowed/acceptable. Frankly this is just me guessing their reasons and it's up to them if they want to answer.

    Just because someone else / another community has allowed something, doesn't mean it's acceptable elsewhere.

    For me, I do not accept your apology because your reasoning is "I didn't know it was not allowed." Did someone have to tell you that you're not supposed to rape or murder? No? Then why should not trivialising a major terrorist incident need to be a rule before you don't do it.
    Also I notice that your map is still on the Steam Workshop, with the TF2maps logo still at the bottom of your description. EDIT: The TF2map.net logo has been removed, but the submission is still there.
     
    • Respectfully Disagree Respectfully Disagree x 1
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  3. Infomaniac

    Infomaniac L6: Sharp Member

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    The reason why we don't see Disaster themed maps is due to the most important question : "Is it Disrespectful or not?"
     
  4. Berry

    aa Berry Sharing is caring, and I don't care

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    There is no direct rule against anything like this, however I really feel like the first rule ("Don't be a jerk") covers this one anyway. If you have to ask yourself "am I allowed to post this?" then should you really be posting it in the first place?

    Rules are set in place with the aim of making somewhere a better place to be, "it's not on the rules" is not an acceptable excuse.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  5. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Short version, there's no rule about making a map based on a real-world terrorist incident because holy shit who would do that
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
    • Like Like x 1
  6. molybdochalkos

    molybdochalkos L1: Registered

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    So did the map violate the rules or not? Seems the answer is no judging by this thread's responses. Was it taken down by Noder or a site admin?
     
  7. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Broadly speaking, it was in violation of the "don't be a jerk" rule - which I think you can break by being insensitive as well as deliberately mean. We as admins closed the thread, but Noder deleted the map.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. NoderNaeta

    NoderNaeta L1: Registered

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    Correction, someone else took down the map. I won't defend the map, in reflection, this was a terrible choice. Hindsight, porting a 9/11 map from one game to another, I should have expected this outcome. But I did read the rules and did not initially become discouraged to continue work on it. Because awful work like this can happen, is why the rule suggestion came to be.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  9. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    I guess this is playing Devil's advocate, but this feels a bit harsh. If you're surrounded by a community that views 9/11 as little more than an Edgy Meme, it's easy to forget that it's actually a very serious event with severe and lasting consequences.

    For me, as long as you've learned from this experience, cool, now you know that that wasn't acceptable behaviour. We can now all move on from this and ultimately become better people.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  10. Hyperion

    aa Hyperion L16: Grid Member

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    Hey, that's my role!
    But seriously, I just can't see this as a serious problem. The towers maybe weren't historical at their time but after the tragedy surely became historical and therefore the map just honors them. I haven't played nor seen the map (because it is taken down obviously) but I can't imagine why the towers would be in bad or disrespectful light in the map. I understand the fuzz if the towers are like red base that gets destroyed but I trust that isn't the case (correct me if I'm wrong and I hope I am).
     
  11. Beef Bucket

    aa Beef Bucket L41: Blessed Member

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    The workshop description reads, in part: "BLU team must escape the World Trade Center. RED must trap the BLUs long enough for the tower to collapse and finish the inside job."

    ...Eeesh
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  12. ~curlysnail

    ~curlysnail L2: Junior Member

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    Reguardless of if this broke any rules or not, I do think the site would benifit from a more specific rule reguarding map submissions. Don't be a jerk can easily be taken just to mean conduct while posting messages and talking to other people.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    I suppose I see this loophole, yes. I've been thinking our rules are in need of a spit and polish cleanup for a while now, so I can make sure to close this gap then.
     
  14. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    As the last person to give those rules a spit shine, I think I'll toss in my 2 cents.

    The rules were written with a sense of trust in the community. Trust that community members would use better judgement when submitting maps, models, or interacting within the community. We could have been very specific with our rules and include things that specifically say "we don't welcome these types of submissions: [list of things]." But we didn't because creating and building a community with that type of rule set is insulting to its members - it would show that the staff don't trust our community members. Lists of rules are for children, and we didn't feel that the community was full of children. You're all (presumably) young adults who can think and act maturely, sensitively and respectably. We shouldn't need to include these specific things on the rules, because everyone in this community, should know better.

    The map like Two-towers is, quite frankly, stupid, immature and extremely insensitive. I'm not sure why anyone ever thought that it was an even remotely good idea for a proper map, let alone a map that this community would accept. Anyone who's spent even the slightest amount of time here, would know that. Had you actually have read the rules and thought about what you were doing for a couple seconds, you would've seen all that. Apology or not, the trust that was written into the rules and community when we last reviewed them - was broken with the submission of this map.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5