KotH Lucky Request [Deleted]

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FishyUberMuffin

War Paints Everywhere
Apr 26, 2015
954
186
You should also feel secure from snipers in some places.
There is sniper cover. Its the fences from the control point and the entrance of mid.
 

FishyUberMuffin

War Paints Everywhere
Apr 26, 2015
954
186
what about every other place in the map?
Those other places in the map. Are meant to be flank rousts and snipers are drawn to mid and not the other places. You should not see snipers in the other places.
 

FishyUberMuffin

War Paints Everywhere
Apr 26, 2015
954
186
Big sightlines atract snipers btw the map is sniper heaven
but only for mid. The other places are to enclose. Snipers dont want to deal with sollys and demos.
 

Glubbable

L2: Junior Member
Sep 1, 2013
53
146
Your side routes that are in-doors have massive sight lines, if you actually looked at the images that were posted here by Heroriks.

Like, seriously, everywhere you go in the map, there's a massive sight line for a Sniper.
 

FishyUberMuffin

War Paints Everywhere
Apr 26, 2015
954
186
Your side routes that are in-doors have massive sight lines, if you actually looked at the images that were posted here by Heroriks.

Like, seriously, everywhere you go in the map, there's a massive sight line for a Sniper.
Right outside of spawn does not have a massive sight line due to walls that have the signs and the walls around the control point. That gives cover within the main part of the map.
 

Heroriks

L2: Junior Member
Aug 10, 2016
76
18
Your map has serius sightline issues. Any half decent sniper would abuse the hell out of them to the point the enemy team would want to ragequit. And any half decent sniper can avoid enemy sollies, demos & scouts
 

Glubbable

L2: Junior Member
Sep 1, 2013
53
146
Mid is 90% sight lines, 10% pray the sniper doesn't guess which cover your behind and pops you when you peak.
 

FishyUberMuffin

War Paints Everywhere
Apr 26, 2015
954
186

FishyUberMuffin

War Paints Everywhere
Apr 26, 2015
954
186
Now sniper is not overpowered within this new version.
 

Viemärirotta

sniffer
aa
Feb 5, 2016
1,013
590
Usually when designing a layout, you don't want to rely on fences for blocking vision since their effect is null once you get on them and they force grounded players to use open paths.
 

Flipy

I like foxes
aa
Jul 20, 2016
170
1,019
Nothing is over overscaled because you are in a volcano

Edit: You should feel small

Edit: I was overly harsh with some of my wording at first, this was done very late at night so I apologize for that. I tried to tone it down and elaborate on things more

This isnt an excuse for poor gameplay and scale issues. You know another map that takes place in a volcano and feels great? arena_volcano
Overscaling your map just poops on any fun that can be had by it as it can cause
  • optimization issues
    • speaks for itself
  • Long walk times
    • Reliance on fast classes or jumping classes
    • Heavies arent going to want to walk all the way up to mid and such through these long flank routes, especially given how prone they will be to snipers
    • Nobody is going to use the long route in an overscaled map when a shorter route is 2x as quick
    • upload_2017-9-12_0-18-22.png

    • to get up to here you have to take strangely long route, the route from spawn is incredibly questionanle
    • 24~ seconds to get up to this pathway. 24~ seconds.
    • and for what? Nothing. This flank servers next to no purpose. You cannot get to point quickly after this or to any normal gameplay spaces, unless you are a demoman or soldier. Not a jumping class? Enjoy your long walk.
  • sight-line issues
    • upload_2017-9-12_0-2-56.png
      upload_2017-9-12_0-3-50.png

    • yes it is possible to get up onto this fence without cheating, and while im obviously exposed, I can still abuse this for some cheesey and unfair kills as sniper
  • Often lazy and blocky design
    • the map feels like a guant box that had platforms hap hazardly added to it
    • When designing layouts think more about the gameplay spaces dynamically, and work the borders around those dynamic spaces.
    • This is an example of when it feels like you just made a room and dropped some random blockers in it.
    • upload_2017-9-12_0-2-29.png
Some other issues that need to be pointed out but arent entirwly part of the overscaling issue
upload_2017-9-12_0-22-36.png

If I am not a jumping class, I cannot get to this healthkit. And for a small healthkit? Its not worth it
upload_2017-9-12_0-23-15.png

You are rushing your geometry, and it leads to stuff like this. Seriously it takes a couple of extra seconds to make sure everything fits flush, this is lazy and sad.
upload_2017-9-12_0-24-25.png

upload_2017-9-12_0-25-23.png

On that note, your map has things being different sizes. That spot where I was standing on the fence on red side? You cant do that on blue side because of this enlarged gap. This is an objective imbalance

upload_2017-9-12_0-25-48.png

Lastly, these are questionable. They are really difficult and un fun to try and climb as any non jumping class. You have to make a corner jump around props with wonky collission over lava, for a small health kit. Its not worth the risk and effort
upload_2017-9-12_0-26-46.png

These pillars arent even the same for each side, Blue dontt have a path around to climb up, but instead have to make a damn precise jump and abuse the physics engine just to get this kit. Once again, not worth the risk.

The more I look at this map, the more it feels completely rushed and honestly, thoughtless. It feels like you are just putting in cover and routes just to have them without stopping and considering how a random player is going to perceive and use these areas. You need to forecast in yout mind where battles are going to be taking place, and then tuning your other routes to compliment those forecasts. Your mid feels completely seperate to any of the flanks and with its open nature I can forecast that players will want to avoid it unless they need to use it. So where would players go to circumvent that? Flanks. However, players wont want to use your flanks because of how much time it takes, and the risk they take being open to enemy snipers. Problematically, none of the flanks give access to the main point, and with how overscaled they are, lack any real reason to go and use them.
 
Last edited:

OctoBlitz

Sabotage related, and Tak approved!
aa
Jan 15, 2016
357
193
Edit: I was overly harsh with some of my wording at first, this was done very late at night so I apologize for that. I tried to tone it down and elaborate on things more

This isnt an excuse for poor gameplay and scale issues. You know another map that takes place in a volcano and feels great? arena_volcano
Overscaling your map just poops on any fun that can be had by it as it can cause
  • optimization issues
    • speaks for itself
  • Long walk times
    • Reliance on fast classes or jumping classes
    • Heavies arent going to want to walk all the way up to mid and such through these long flank routes, especially given how prone they will be to snipers
    • Nobody is going to use the long route in an overscaled map when a shorter route is 2x as quick
    • upload_2017-9-12_0-18-22.png

    • to get up to here you have to take strangely long route, the route from spawn is incredibly questionanle
    • 24~ seconds to get up to this pathway. 24~ seconds.
    • and for what? Nothing. This flank servers next to no purpose. You cannot get to point quickly after this or to any normal gameplay spaces, unless you are a demoman or soldier. Not a jumping class? Enjoy your long walk.
  • sight-line issues
    • upload_2017-9-12_0-2-56.png
      upload_2017-9-12_0-3-50.png

    • yes it is possible to get up onto this fence without cheating, and while im obviously exposed, I can still abuse this for some cheesey and unfair kills as sniper
  • Often lazy and blocky design
    • the map feels like a guant box that had platforms hap hazardly added to it
    • When designing layouts think more about the gameplay spaces dynamically, and work the borders around those dynamic spaces.
    • This is an example of when it feels like you just made a room and dropped some random blockers in it.
    • upload_2017-9-12_0-2-29.png
Some other issues that need to be pointed out but arent entirwly part of the overscaling issue
upload_2017-9-12_0-22-36.png

If I am not a jumping class, I cannot get to this healthkit. And for a small healthkit? Its not worth it
upload_2017-9-12_0-23-15.png

You are rushing your geometry, and it leads to stuff like this. Seriously it takes a couple of extra seconds to make sure everything fits flush, this is lazy and sad.
upload_2017-9-12_0-24-25.png

upload_2017-9-12_0-25-23.png

On that note, your map has things being different sizes. That spot where I was standing on the fence on red side? You cant do that on blue side because of this enlarged gap. This is an objective imbalance

upload_2017-9-12_0-25-48.png

Lastly, these are questionable. They are really difficult and un fun to try and climb as any non jumping class. You have to make a corner jump around props with wonky collission over lava, for a small health kit. Its not worth the risk and effort
upload_2017-9-12_0-26-46.png

These pillars arent even the same for each side, Blue dontt have a path around to climb up, but instead have to make a damn precise jump and abuse the physics engine just to get this kit. Once again, not worth the risk.

The more I look at this map, the more it feels completely rushed and honestly, thoughtless. It feels like you are just putting in cover and routes just to have them without stopping and considering how a random player is going to perceive and use these areas. You need to forecast in yout mind where battles are going to be taking place, and then tuning your other routes to compliment those forecasts. Your mid feels completely seperate to any of the flanks and with its open nature I can forecast that players will want to avoid it unless they need to use it. So where would players go to circumvent that? Flanks. However, players wont want to use your flanks because of how much time it takes, and the risk they take being open to enemy snipers. Problematically, none of the flanks give access to the main point, and with how overscaled they are, lack any real reason to go and use them.

You weren't being harsh to him, you gave the feedback properly.

However much we tell you, fishy, you seem to not listen when we say that you need to learn to scale your map, working on it is one thing, playing it is another, to really get a sense of scale on your map you need to use more playermodels and not limit yourself to your theme!

That kind of stuff ruins a map, and just placing a few bits of cover in a long sightline that couldnt be fixed unless you were to remake the entire passage way is never a good thing.

Hopefully you can take this advice and use it to better your maps in the future.
 
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