KotH Lucky Request [Deleted]

[FishyUberMuffin]

Edit: I was overly harsh with some of my wording at first, this was done very late at night so I apologize for that. I tried to tone it down and elaborate on things more

This isnt an excuse for poor gameplay and scale issues. You know another map that takes place in a volcano and feels great? arena_volcano
Overscaling your map just poops on any fun that can be had by it as it can cause

• optimization issues
  • speaks for itself
• Long walk times
  • Reliance on fast classes or jumping classes
  • Heavies arent going to want to walk all the way up to mid and such through these long flank routes, especially given how prone they will be to snipers
  • Nobody is going to use the long route in an overscaled map when a shorter route is 2x as quick
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  • to get up to here you have to take strangely long route, the route from spawn is incredibly questionanle
  • 24~ seconds to get up to this pathway. 24~ seconds.
  • and for what? Nothing. This flank servers next to no purpose. You cannot get to point quickly after this or to any normal gameplay spaces, unless you are a demoman or soldier. Not a jumping class? Enjoy your long walk.
• sight-line issues
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  • yes it is possible to get up onto this fence without cheating, and while im obviously exposed, I can still abuse this for some cheesey and unfair kills as sniper
• Often lazy and blocky design
  • the map feels like a guant box that had platforms hap hazardly added to it
  • When designing layouts think more about the gameplay spaces dynamically, and work the borders around those dynamic spaces.
  • This is an example of when it feels like you just made a room and dropped some random blockers in it.
  • 

Some other issues that need to be pointed out but arent entirwly part of the overscaling issue

If I am not a jumping class, I cannot get to this healthkit. And for a small healthkit? Its not worth it

You are rushing your geometry, and it leads to stuff like this. Seriously it takes a couple of extra seconds to make sure everything fits flush, this is lazy and sad.

On that note, your map has things being different sizes. That spot where I was standing on the fence on red side? You cant do that on blue side because of this enlarged gap. This is an objective imbalance

Lastly, these are questionable. They are really difficult and un fun to try and climb as any non jumping class. You have to make a corner jump around props with wonky collission over lava, for a small health kit. Its not worth the risk and effort

These pillars arent even the same for each side, Blue dontt have a path around to climb up, but instead have to make a damn precise jump and abuse the physics engine just to get this kit. Once again, not worth the risk.

The more I look at this map, the more it feels completely rushed and honestly, thoughtless. It feels like you are just putting in cover and routes just to have them without stopping and considering how a random player is going to perceive and use these areas. You need to forecast in yout mind where battles are going to be taking place, and then tuning your other routes to compliment those forecasts. Your mid feels completely seperate to any of the flanks and with its open nature I can forecast that players will want to avoid it unless they need to use it. So where would players go to circumvent that? Flanks. However, players wont want to use your flanks because of how much time it takes, and the risk they take being open to enemy snipers. Problematically, none of the flanks give access to the main point, and with how overscaled they are, lack any real reason to go and use them.

Of course my maps feel rushed. It's kinda my thing. I push out a quickly created map then threw the updates the map gets fixed. This happens with every map I created.

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

You weren't being harsh to him, you gave the feedback properly.

However much we tell you, fishy, you seem to not listen when we say that you need to learn to scale your map, working on it is one thing, playing it is another, to really get a sense of scale on your map you need to use more playermodels and not limit yourself to your theme!

That kind of stuff ruins a map, and just placing a few bits of cover in a long sightline that couldnt be fixed unless you were to remake the entire passage way is never a good thing.

Hopefully you can take this advice and use it to better your maps in the future.

I do lisson. I just quickly pushed this map out to have it out. Then I will do a major overhaul. I have not forgotten about scaling.

 

[Viemärirotta]

Imo, change your ways. Take time to learn what makes a fun and playable layout, then take the time to design one, not rush one in a few hours. You can clearly see an improvement if the layout still looks a bit similar to the original while being actually good.

 

[Da Spud Lord]

Viperi is right. You don't seem to be learning. Your maps improve, but you don't always seem to, as you simply make the same mistakes again in the next map. When someone gives you feedback, you sometimes just do the bare minimum to fix the problem and call it fixed. You sometimes argue with feedback, even when multiple players tell you there's a problem. The fact that you rush through these maps is clear, and because of it, you don't understand your map's gameplay and how it plays for players. You really need to understand how your map plays and design a layout around class balance and TF2's gameplay. And yes, that's gonna take time- a few days, or maybe even a week or two, or longer. And that's fine! It's okay to take your time. Nothing bad is gonna happen if you wait a week or two to ensure that your map's layout is decent. We'd rather have 1 update a week with a good layout and real improvements than 3 updates per day where you do the bare minimum to fix problems without touching on the deeper, core problems the map has. Take your time. Ask questions about gameplay theory, if you need to. We'll all still be here, no matter how long you take for your update.

 

[~curlysnail]

Snipers needs somewhere to snipe. I can't completely shutdown all snipers.

My freind you just got absolutly amazing and detailed feedback from Flippy. The sniper sightlines are a symptom of a much larger problem in your map. I'd take time to read through what Flippy has written and take an even longer time fixing the issues in the map.

 

[Flipy]

I do lisson. I just quickly pushed this map out to have it out. Then I will do a major overhaul. I have not forgotten about scaling.

Scaling is incredibly difficult to fix after your routes and such have been made without doing a complete map overhaul. I can get that pushing things out quickly is just 'your style' but that is no defense for how ineffectice and flawed that way of doing things is.

Fixing bugs and some wonky geometry after a rushed release is more acceptable, but when your layout and scaling are inherently flawed and wrong, no amount of small fixes is going to truly fix those problems, it will just make the map feel low quality and stitches together.

You need to sit down and really really really think about your layout and take the time to get the scale right. The fine balance you need to strike is much too difficult and important for you to be rushing it like this until ypu have plenty of experience with getting it correct first.

Now is this going to stop you from continuing on? No idea, thats still up to you, and even monkies and typewriters (that can run hammer) could eventually make a replica of cp_badlands given an infinite amount of time, but its not going to be as effective as one person learning the tools and skills to do it in a reasonable time instead.

 

[LeSwordfish]

I push out a quickly created map then threw the updates the map gets fixed. This happens with every map I created.

If your plan is to make a rushed, half-assed map, and then fix it, you're going to need to learn to cope with people saying "this is a rushed, half-assed map. Here's how to fix it."