[Judge Vote] Flame's Hate Thread

Discussion in 'Contests' started by Flame, May 28, 2010.

  1. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    8)

    Edit: Let me start by saying scaling off the number 7 is a god awful idea and I don't care whose idea it was, its still terrible.

    Edit: Edit: Let me also say I tried to be as unbiased as possible and try not to hate me when you're done reading the scoring of your map
     
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    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  2. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Cloudburst
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 5
    Class Involvement 6
    Average 5.5


    So gameplay on this map. I'm a fan of the way the fight is centralized at the middle and on the choke points into the bases. There is a lot of room for the medics to hold back a safe distance while still be able to heal up their teammates in the middle as well as in the bases. The problem for me with this map is the fun involved in playing demoman and scout against a turtling team. As far as demos are concerned, there is really no place to jump to, making the role effectively to spam and watch the intelligence. The map overall is very flat and there isn't too much going on. Despite that however, it flows much better than a very good deal of the ctf contest maps and for that I will say gameplay is pretty solid. Soldiers have a good deal of terrain to jump around on, and scouts can play as jumpy and annoying as ever since the cave and yards are pretty flat and open.

    The better team will probably win 90% of the time but the map does suffer from a lack of vertical gameplay and does not really do anything that turbine already hasn't. Moral of the story is that I do like turbine as well as this map so I will say it deserves around a 5 just because of how basic the layout is.

    As far as class involvement goes, there are some pretty decently long sightlines you have to worry about making sniper very viable but also does provide a lot of cover in the chokes so running a heavy is not out of the question either. I don't really care about whether or not the map caters to spies but Engineer is also a valid option on this map due to the positioning of the intelligence being in a room. You could probably play every class on this map effectively but I don't think anybody playing demoman will really enjoy themselves much on this map and for that I will give the class involvement score around a 6
     
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    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  3. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Landfall
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 3
    Class Involvement 4
    Average 3.5


    Hmm, the map of ginormous trees. Ok so this map you can tell right off the bat that it was designed for competitive play. There are massive height advantages at middle, lots of room to jump, and a lot of strategically placed healthpacks and routes into the bases. That doesn't mean anything to me though. I want to say I've pugged this map at least 10 times in a 6v6 setting and not one time did I really enjoy myself. From a medics perspective the middle of the map is like a death trap. You can't really fall into the pit that is the middle and expect to stay alive for more than a few seconds. In the event you really do want to stay alive, your best bet is to stay up top where you're forced to walk on narrow planks of wood where the smallest bit of splash damage could send you falling into the pit for scouts and soldiers to have easy pickings. The routes into the base are too spread apart to really push effectively. If you do push the main entrance you can be sure a scout or two snuck out up top or through the lower paths to mid to backcap you when you were not looking making engineers almost necessary to ensure victory.

    Idk, just not too big a fan of the map in general. Sure it looks cool as hell and is really fun to play as soldier if you're trying to get keen on your rocket jumping skills but from a 6v6 standpoint, the layout just does not work. Maps need to be designed with medics as top priority, than soldiers and demomen. While the soldiers and demomen might have fun jumping around middle, trying to keep their medics alive long enough to make it to the enemy flag which happens to sit right in front of their spawn exits just is not going to happen. Gameplay is at about a 3.

    What this map does do however is make scouting,sniping,soldiering, and demoing very easy. The rest of the classes however pretty much will just get shit on by those 3 due to their inability to jump and get to the top of the map fast enough to do any substantial damage. class balance is at about a 4 only because engineers can play a very good role for keeping your flag at home.
     
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    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  4. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Stockpile
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 5
    Class Involvement 5
    Average 5


    Funny story, I didn't vote for this map to make it into prelims, but after a few more pugs I realized I probably should have. Map does a good job of keeping the medic alive, and giving scouts and demomen room to move effectively and quickly when need-be. The layout of the map is actually not that bad, its just kind of bland. There is a whole section of the bases off to the right side that doesn't really get used at all except to spawn, and the doubled up garage doors on the way to the intel is more of a death trap than anything else. I've had some very exciting matches on this map however but there are some flaws in the layout and design. For one, I'm not really sure what the granary pipe is doing in the intel room nor am I really impressed by the geometry of the middle with just a lone house to jump on and off of. The map does have a good flow, its just nowhere near as good as it could be I guess.

    Soldiers get to mid, realize they should probably get on the roof of the house because it just looks appealing, and scouts have to probably do the same or else the soldiers up top will take them out easily from above. The demoman has very limited room to jump since the middle is pretty tiny but the health packs and cover are placed well enough to where a medic probably won't be killed too easily. The map is very well done in terms of balance and speed, but the physical playing of the map isn't really to much fun for any if all of the classes. I'll give the gameplay about a 5.

    Class balance on this map is probably not as good as it could have been. The middle of the map lacks cover for non jumping classes and forces demos/scouts/soldiers to want to play from the roof of the building. Engineers seemed to have a hard time doing much on this map if I remember correctly and some of the sightlines make playing heavy effectively pretty hard. Class involvement about a 5.
     
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    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  5. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Mercy
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 1
    Class Involvement 5
    Average 3


    God have mercy. First of all, the map is too small. Don't really care how it scales compared to other maps or whether or not it played good in one pug once. The 4-5 times I've played this have been the most boring frustrating 20 minute spamfests of my life. So pretty much you spawn, walk 2 feet and youre at mid with a height advantage. If a team tries to grab the flag, you just go through spawn and cut them off. The odds of them grabbing your flag are already low enough. This map redefined the term turtle. Not only is the base small enough to just run SR demo and stand still to topfrag, engineer on the staircase is a bitch to take out since the stairs eat sticky splash damage. Ubers into the base are useless since your whole team can fall back into spawn and be at mid without taking any damage, and all of the chokes are so narrow that nothing can get in without eating shit from a rocket or a sticky. Map doesnt play well, two of the entrances into the bases out of 3 are out of the way to use and put you at a disadvantage just by walking into them, and being able to turtle so effectively makes it boring and frustrating for both teams. Gameplay 1.

    The map does a good job however of making teams want to play engineer and spy to turtle and possibly grab the flag since there is pretty much no other way to do so. Playing heavy is also a valid tactic as natascha can shut down the bases and make any scout trying to grab/run immobile. Soldiers can have a good time deathmatching in the 2v2 sized middle with their scouts while the demoman and medic sit in the bases and make sure nobody grabs. Every class has a role though so I'll give it a 5. ;)
     
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    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  6. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Wiretap
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 5
    Class Involvement 6
    Average 5.5


    I hate void, voids whiney blah blah blah ban flame i miss rexy blah blah blah. Void showed up to this contest, plain and simple. His map looks good, the base layouts are well done, and the thought process behind a lot of the changes/designs are pretty well thought out. The problem I have with the map is that the bases are very far apart from eachother and the flags are tucked way back past the spawns. It really does resemble 2fort in that category. Sentries are not too powerful and medics can get into the bases with uber without being too harassed due to the cover of the bridge and walkways but the overall pace of the map is pretty low comparatively. The initial mid fight is about the only time you can expect a full 6 on 6 battle to happen since the rest of the times teams are either turtling or splitting up at mid or dying alone due to the overscaled middle. It does play better than a number of the entries though and does a good job of placing health in advantageous spots and such despite the bridge being slightly imbalanced in terms of health and ammo. I'll give the map about a 5 due to the lack of speed.

    Mostly all classes can do well on this map however. The engineer can play its role on defense thus making a spy a very valid choice. There are some pretty big sightlines but none too big or too wide to where you can't find a way to creep up on the sniper, meaning running a heavy is probably doable whether or not its practical due to scaling. I'll say the class involvement is around a 6 because there are times as scout where you can't do anything due to them locking down the base since you only have 2-3 choke points to choose from to get into enemy territory, as well as the fact nobody will want to play heavy since it takes so damn long to get from one intel to the other and some of the sightlines are far too long and powerful.
     
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    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  7. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
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    Deliverance
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 6
    Class Involvement 7
    Average 6.5


    This map could very easily be the contest winner. The map does a very good job of giving medics room to breathe and duck for cover while still allowing teams to make heals. Shmitz took a risk with invade ctf and pulled it off beautifully. The middle of the map has just enough health and just enough cover to where you don't need to worry about being shot in the face and where you don't need to worry about people creepin up on you. The one-flag mechanic seems to be the way to go for interesting gameplay since it keeps both teams focused on one objective and target, keeping fights centralized on the intel and not on holding flanks or watching out for backcaps.

    Everyone on the map always knows where the intel is and the bases are so well placed in reference to the spawn that turtling the cap zone is not easy by any means since you need to fight an uphill battle on defense to prevent the other team from scoring. Only problem I have with this map is that once you cap it seems as if the flag spawns instantly allowing the other team to ninja you when you aren't looking or are too busy trying to get your cap in the first place. There is also an issue that the gameplay is pretty straightforward and there is maybe one and a half paths you can actually utilize for a push given you don't get pretty lucky. The ability to win based off backcaps dropped my gameplay score from a 7 to a 6. Very good map though.

    Class gameplay is almost perfect. I've seen pyros try to airblast people off the cap points, heavies play defense as well as offense on the hills, and some sneaky sentry spots to try and keep scouts off the cap. The sightlines got better with each version making snipers powerful but not overpowered and overall the map does a great job of giving each class a defined role in terms of offense/defense. Perfect imo, 7.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  8. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Converge
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 4
    Class Involvement 6
    Average 5


    CP_Gorge without the pit of death, oh wait. This map isnt too bad, it just isnt very good either. Turtling in this map is beyond easy due to the chokes into the base and the fact the intelligence can be blocked by standing on the cap point (whoever told you to add that is a fool and needs to be smacked). Overall the map does not flow very well but it doesn't suck terribly, making scoring it hard. The middle is kind of fun to play on since it has some good geometry (completely unoriginal might I add) and makes playing scout and demoman pretty fun. Once you get into the base its a completely different story. The intel cap zone is in a large room overlooked by the spawn and blocked off by 3 choke points which you need to uber prematurely through to avoid being spammed. Did I mention you can block the cap zone? Your team gets locked in that left side room waiting to get uber than pushes in and probably gets gayed by a sentry gun or a sandvich heavy standing on the cap zone making it impossible to cap. Than if you do cap you need to give the attacking team time to reset by putting a 5 second or so timer on the intel respawn.

    The problem with this map in terms of gameplay is that the game mode doesn't fit the layout. Invade ctf is not an easy mode to map for which is apparent since not many mappers even attempted to do so (RIP ctf_sandvichcredit). As a dual-flag ctf map it probably would have played pretty well aside from the ease of turtling but I think I made myself clear when I said a while back to completely redo the base layouts since they were god awful. There is even an elevated path out of spawn which overlooks the only route the attackers can really take making pushing on this map incredibly difficult. I'll give this map a 4.

    Class involvement is pretty good. Heavies can work at mid, there are some pretty devastating sightlines to give snipers a bit of a boost but since the bases are indoors just about every class works. Spies can sap the more than likely built sentry guns and soldiers can practice their airshots on the demomen outside while the scouts control anything that falls under the point. I just hate the base layout and the lack of fun in playing medic on this map. For that I give it a 6.
     
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    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  9. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Overlook
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 4
    Class Involvement 5
    Average 4.5


    CTF_Doublecross scaled smaller without the deathpit and themed badlands style with random spytech in the bases. The overall pace of this map is pretty decent but the layout is pretty bad in my opinion. The map did develop rather well from its first versions into what it is now but the way it plays out can be rather frustrating. There are some pretty ginormous sightlines and it seems as if the middle of the map was designed to be some sort of soldier airshot training map. There is really no reason to want to go underneath the bridge at mid other than to be sneaky but that route caters only to scouts and nobody else. The map does a good job of keeping teams together since its not too wide but something about the huge ramp staircases into the base along with those annoying as shit windows which are just a one-way spam for the defending team can really get on peoples nerves.

    I know I'm not supposed to comment on it but the spytech theme kind of comes out of nowhere near the cap zones and looks completely out of place and doesn't really provide any interesting geometry to fight on. The map does cater to demomen soldiers and scouts but as icky already stated, playing medic on this map is just a headache. There is nowhere near enough cover on the middle or underneath and the roofs at mid are pretty much only for soldiers and demomen. Even defending from the bridges makes pushing pretty hard. I have had some pretty fun and close matches on this map though so I will give it about a 4 in gameplay.

    As far as the classes go, I would say just about any class can find a place to be or go on this map. I just hate how much of an advantage the jumping classes have over those that don't. Medics feel helpless at mid as well as during their pushes and without anywhere to really fall back to, you might as well just type kill in console when you fall off the bridge. The map does make playing heavy an option but some of the sightlines are rather large. I'll give class involvement about a 5.
     
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    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  10. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Bedrock
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 5
    Class Involvement 5
    Average 5


    Another doublecross styled mid with a bit of a weird twist on the bases. I do enjoy this map thoroughly in a pub setting due to the insanity that occurs in the middle and the ability to push and hold the bridge. The pace of the map is pretty good but I think this is the one map that got in that is slightly overscaled. The spawns are pretty far back in the bases and the geometry of the bases is really boring. There are a few ledges to jump up on and a roof to climb but it's been done a million times before. I like how the map keeps pace however since if you control mid you can hold without being worried about some ninja scout escaping behind you and the medics have a good enough playing field to where they wont get shit on in a matter of a second due to the garage door and the health packs underneath.

    The difference between this and overlook is the bottom floor isnt a death trap due to the positioning of the entrances and the lack of sloped playing field. There are also some kinda useless feeling paths off to the side of the map which are supposed to serve as a flank, but theyre kind of narrow and chokey. The map itself is pretty good, I just don't enjoy the scaling or the overall layout of the bases since it makes fighting pretty boring. I'll say the gameplays about a 5.

    I don't even know what to write for class involvement anymore. Soldiers and demos will probably have an ok time traversing the map due to the ledges and open skybox room to jump. Scouts and snipers can also try to dominate the lower path but I think some of the sightlines are a bit big, and aside from engineer to turtle last I don't see many classes really doing well. I have seen heavy pulled off though and since the map does a good job keeping the medic alive I'll give it another 5.
     
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    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  11. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
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    Wildfyaaaaaaaaa
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 7
    Class Involvement 7
    Average 7


    Probably a little biased toward this map because I spent so much time running through it with him to try and make it perfect before he went to Japan, and because I have an online homosexual crush on him but this map is perfect. The touch return mechanic was used perfectly in this map. Ok so the middle is just the hydro dish reskinned with a bridge over it but who gives a shit, its awesome terrain to fight on. It gives every class a chance and the way splash damage works in the dish is pretty cool. The development of the spawns and the bases got better and better and I don't think I've ever played a boring, non-exciting match on this map.

    I mean this is a competitive ctf contest and I think he's the only one who had the balls to throw down a spire. The gameplay is super solid, with three entrances to each base, all of which are utilized by some class and none of which put you at a disadvantage to use. The pace of the map is kept very well by the fences in the main choke and the fact the other two exits are very small in comparison meaning uber fights need to occur and there is enough cover for every class to be played well and fun.

    Class involvement on this map is perfect. In pubs everyone decides to go pyro, and in comp I've seen engis set up on the intel and fail, and watched snipers be pretty effective even if there are only a few sniper angles. I don't know what else to say. Medics love the map because the bridge at middle has health on it and even if they fall off they can play the bowl to avoid splash damage. Scouts love the map because of all the cool terrain to play on and demomen are powerful due to the amount of room to jump as well as the narrow chokes at mid they can spam up. Perfect class involvement. 7.
     
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  12. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    Fusion
    Column 1 Column 2
    Category Score/7
    Gameplay 7
    Class Involvement 6
    Average 6.5


    Havin a hard time scoring this map because I think it plays about as good as deliverance but the gameplay styles are so dramatically different that its almost weird to even compare the two. The map plays well, after a million attempts at a good mid, Ravidge finally nailed it. There are a few crazy long sightlines but what else do you expect from mr. community sniper rifle. Pugged it today and everything flowed really well. The flanks are watchable, the intel is grabbable, sentries fail, medics have a lot of room to fall back to, and scouts and soldiers have a lot of room to jump. I think this map plays the most like a 5cp of all the maps in the contest due to the scaling, the intensity of the initial mid fight, and the ability to make pushes and hold with uber. Despite the fact it seems relatively flat, the rocks and ledges at mid provide good fighting geometry and cover for classes that need to fall back.

    This map makes ubers a necessity. There is really no way to ninja-grab the intelligence effectively since its located so close to the spawn and the reset time on the intel is relatively short. There are a few unused paths but like whatever, the map plays well. If this map doesn't place in the top 3 I will be shocked. I don't know what else there is to say, I have nothing to complain about, and the map just overall plays fast and exciting.

    Class involvement is fine. Every other class has its niche in this map and the medics have an easy time finding cover and health to keep themselves a live. The only problem is that there are some kind of annoying sightlines to deal with since the middle is so open which might be a gameplay problem, but the mixture of long sightlines and much needed ammo packs is the only reason I can't give this map a perfect score. Class involvements about a 6.
     
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    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  13. DaBeatzProject

    aa DaBeatzProject

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    1,091
    Does this mean the other results will come in soon too? :O
     
  14. Flame

    aa Flame

    Messages:
    369
    Positive Ratings:
    433
    idk i got bored of waiting for people so i asked drp to move the thread. theres a few other completed ones im pretty sure
     
  15. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
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    Positive Ratings:
    3,562
    Might want to actually name the thread appropriately... if a mod could do that? I didn't expect to see contest scores when i opened it.
     
  16. zpqrei

    aa zpqrei Theme Changer Extraordinaire

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    1,122