MVM isolation RC3

[EArkham]

Updated to B3.

Should fix several issues:

• spies in the forward upgrade station
• nav mesh issues (pathing should be totally correct now)
• money falling into the pits
• added more ammo
• added a touch more cover (rock in valley, fence at hatch)
• assorted other adjustments, including a touch more detailing here and there

 

[compy]

When loading B3, I get the error message "Unknown NavArea sub-version number" and then a server freeze.

 

[EArkham]

Maybe cause I let Pakrat "fix" the version on the nav mesh this time; I didn't do that any other time.

Alright, I'll have a B4 ready tomorrow then just to address this. I'd like to know if anyone else gets this error though.

 

[EArkham]

Alright, B4 released. Took the opportunity to fix some lighting issues I noticed near redspawn as well. I did NOT let Pakrat change the nav file this time, and I made sure to run a nav_analyze as well so hopefully between the two that "Unknown NavArea" problem is resolved.

I should also point out a minor thing I forgot to mention before, but I added this small platform. This lets any class make a little jump around that corner, effectively creating another route to get up to the high ground without rocket jumping.

I haven't changed the layout in any other way yet -- want to be sure this release is stable and available before the SDK stuff happens on the 23rd before I start fiddling with any big changes.

 

[Cynel1]

thanks for the update this map is the closest thing to MvM trailer

 

[UKCS-Alias]

I have a few questions.

Does the map support flank paths. i did a quick look and saw 2 main paths (which is good!) but i also want to know if the bots use side paths (equal to how they do in decoy, coaltown and bigrock).

Also, what difficulties are in the pack? I saw only the default one which to me would be equal to how an intermediate/advanced mode would be.

(i dont have java installed so cant use pakrat atm)

 

[EArkham]

The bots do use the side paths, yes. There are three -- one main valley route, one cliff overlooking the valley route, and then the route through the large building (past the deathpits). In my testing of the latest build with tweaked nav meshes and block brushes, the bots were properly using all three routes. Some of the support bots are set up to always use the cliff flanks however.

There's only one difficulty right now. Intermediate was the target difficulty, so that's good to hear that it feels like it. I wanted to make sure that was correctly balanced before considering normal, advanced, and expert.

Normal will likely be a similar population, only with weaker tanks and minibosses. Maybe losing the huntsmen and quickfix medics.

Advanced will probably be similar as well, only with longer waves, and more of them.

Expert, I'll probably get a bit crazy and totally change up the population. Or make one super long wave. I dunno yet.

That'll will likely be after whatever happens to the SDK on the 30th with the steampipe changeover.

 

[UKCS-Alias]

I did a test with the usual team of me (which can handle expert fine) and some did make a demo of it.

First, i did notice the 3rd path being used just once in 10 rounds (the side path that doesnt get near the pits).

The comments i have one it:

• The map mostly matches mannworks in playstyle as the flanks happen very early in the map while near the end there isnt anything to flank but there are multiple main entrances.
• You had alot of custom classes, although all quite normal. not an issue and the icons are good for it. Still, i have the idea you used them a bit too often. And as most are melee the effect of them is too little.
• The money only seems to drop on normal classes, valve often also uses the support classes for it to at least have more packages. I suggest to do this also in some of the waves (specificly the ones where there arent alot of normal small classes). 1 wave had 10 giants all worth 50 each yet there was a huge ammount of support. I rather would see most of the smaller ones dropping for example 5 each and the giants 25. Support classes with money will stop dropping once the required number is killed and when they havent all died the money that wasnt dropped is automaticly given to the player. Make use of it as this is what makes it more interesting for a scout. I was a scout in the game while as pyro i probably could have done a similar job.
• I saw a serious lack of bullet classes. The only ones i have seen were a few giant heavies and snipers. Not even the standard scouts or heavies were used for it (dont use shotgun pyros or shotgun heavies! from my experience they dont feel anything special at all as both are outclassed by a normal scout in speed or minigun in damage). Alternatively an engineer is capable of providing bullet enemies aswel.
• In the wave with the single tank i would suggest spies and faster classes to attack you (scouts or engineers with teleports to get the enemies forward). The melee pyros didnt do anything usefull. Alternatively you could add 2 giants (even if its just 2 single fire crit soldiers) after the tank to compensate the slower classes and extend the round a bit. A tank worth 1000 money on its own is overkill and some of that money needs to be on other classes. You can even do a layout like:
  1 tank worth $300 with at the same time 50 scouts worth $10 each and 2 giant single shot crit soldiers worth $100 each together with 2 spies as support at an interval of 60. Where you keep the pyro support but only reduce the ammount the spawn at. Just make sure to compensate the tank health if the scouts/spies take too much attention.
• The difficulty of your mode is probably how bigrock intermediate will be. It gives a good push but an experienced team wont have any issue into beating it and it does allow a team to make some big mistakes (1 or 2 per round at most though). Although as scout it feels more like bigrock advanced due to the lack of health from money. The thing i said before was only by looking at the waves. And its good it matches that.
• For advanced i suggest adding just a bit more giants and ofcourse bullets. Bullets often are the hardest type of damage you face as its hitscan and cant be avoided.
• For expert modes i can help. I made some custom expert modes myself for the valve maps.
• For the super long wave you still have a system of waves except the gap between them is a hard number. Wave 666 for example did have 7 or 8 waves in it.

As a side note, be carefull with fast giant scouts. They might have low health and in some cases they can be easily stopped. but they are many times the reason why people fail a wave in expert as they only give 1 chance of killing them most of the time. A few of them is fine but at least on advanced be sure that a team is aware of them coming. This means either have them at the end when the other giants (and medics) should be dead or early so people know they come in instantly.

 

[EArkham]

Thanks for this, it's really great feedback.

I should be able to increase the odds of the cliff flank being used. Would have to check the map logic to be sure.

Lots of good points overall. I'll definitely refer to this for the next version.

 

[Snowbat]

I was one of the people playing with Alias last night. I made a demo too from my perspective.
My main gripe, was that you seemed to overdo the Crit Axe Pyro's.
But that's mere finetuning you have to do. For the rest, it's a solid map.

Is there a way to add attachments to a post?

 

[EArkham]

I don't see an attachment option when making this post. But for images, I just upload to imgur.com and link. Demos, I'd go dropbox and link.

 

[Snowbat]

So I installed Dropbox...
Here's the demo: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sjtvif5duwxz1y9/isolation.dem
It's the same game as Alias, but from the point of view of the Demoman

 

[UKCS-Alias]

Ok, a few notes again:

• First although you made it so money doesnt drop in the pit, it can fall through the bombpit floor.
• On the right of that building drop (just next the forward upgrade station) i saw a nice spot which you could use for the invasion botspawn. Although its narrow it still can work there. Its however not needed due to the 2 spawns being far enough away from each other.
• In boss waves the pits must be closed off.

And some tips for normal waves:

• Avoid uber medics for most waves. Most of the time a quickfix and sometimes bigheal (which allmost equals an uber yet still can be killed) is good enough.
• Dont use alot of giants, and if its giant scouts never use the fast variant. Fist of steel heavies equal a giant in health, be aware of that.
• Keep the ammount of active enemies low. There is no reason to have 26 active at a time anyway and in this mode you can do enough if you just make effective combinations.
• Engineers are a pain, dont overuse them. If you use them also have the one that walks in the map. This prevents them from spawning behind you at an instant.
• Most enemies have a difficulty of easy and normal. only giants are expert.

And some tips for advanced waves:

• Dont use uber medics in the first wave unless you have an increased starting money. As demoman its a pain to kill many of those medics early. Ofcourse, spawning the whole group at once remains easier than 1 at a time. However, quick fix medics arent an issue at all (bigheal again is close to an uber!).
• If you use fast scouts, have the other classes weaker during that time. That way the team is able to focus on them. And only use them once or twice in the whole mode at low numbers.
• Try to have all enemies active.
• Most enemies are between normal and expert.
• Dont use expert pyros. Their reflecting makes them double as hard than the hard version. Expert pyros are one of the most punishing class.
• Dont spam too much engineers but dont be afraid to use them at all. Even engineers with medics arent a problem (as decoy proves!)
• Giant medics arent a problem in this difficulty. Just make sure that a team can focus on them. Having 2 active at once however should be the limit.

And some general tips

• The final wave (ignoring the boss) allways has a tank. Many times at the complete end.
• Make use of minicrits. This can be done by using the sydney sleepers or the buff banner soldiers. On advanced you can also use the extended version of them. Battalions and concherors are also good as their effect does somewhat similar. These variants are often welcome in waves where crits are just being overkill.

 

[iWantcoal]

I'm just wondering if you could provide a link for just the popfile? I am making a x10 wave for your map and would like to see what are the new classicons called(axe, crit katana, katana). PS I posted here because after a jumble mix of console commands windows searches etc. I can't find the population file for your map.

 

[EArkham]

Sure:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/764491/maps_tf2/mvm_isolation_b4.pop

It's probably a bit of a mess to read; I made comments but ended up changing the things 1/2 the comments reference.

 

[iWantcoal]

Hmm, apparently you are using a custom robot base file too... It'd be nice if I had the base template file rather than the popfile, considering that's where the icons are located in. Sharing that too would help a lot!

 

[EArkham]

Oh, yeah. Forgot about that. Here you go:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dhya805r7dlqk93/robot_isolation.pop

I do plan to update this map with a lot of Alias' suggestions, but I've been very focused on creating models right now.

 

[EArkham]

Updated to B5:

• Lowered house in valley, changed roof angle
• Added named nav_prefer_flank_right (cliffs) so pop writers can make use of it
• nav mesh removal from forward resupply
• Various minor cosmetic fixes

 

[EArkham]

MVM_isolation is now on the workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=512476725

Newest version is B6 and it now includes a full set of missions - normal, intermediate, advanced1, advanced2, and expert.

Thanks to Alias and Lvl 100 Spycrab for creating the missions and Hydrogen for hosting/testing.

Changes:

• Forward upgrade station moved forward (no longer seperate room)
• Adjusted ammo placement
• Fixed some nav_mesh issues
• Added in wave_close_pit and wave_open_pit for mission writers
• Fixed doors on pit to properly open/close
• Fixed some clipping issues at bot spawn
• Added missions (normal, intermediate, advanced1, advanced2, expert)

I will update this thread once I figure out what's going on with all this resource link stuff.

 

[SnickerPuffs]

what's new in B6?